James O'Brien: what a twat

You say it’s not a hassle but I would imagine it would be a pretty drastic move and require a fair bit of explaining to friends/family for the average male

If they allow you to identify as non binary, really not much explanation at all. And you can use whichever sex segregated spaces you feel like! Yay progress!

Ruth, the prison service have already warned that men in prison will say they are transgender to get access to the women's prison.

Travis has claimed this to get access to the woman's changing room, because he felt threatened in a man's changing room but won't accept a woman might feel threatened by him. And actually he's saying he's "gender fluid".

Are you familiar with Danielle Muscato? Do you know how attacks by men posing as women are escalating? Do you know what autogynaephilia is?

I would really urge you to read the links in the OP because all of them, especially Fair Play reply, give an excellent overview of the problems of "self identification".

Rosa,

I meant this quote: “The TRA movement exists so middle class, straight men can claim they are oppressed by women and take those women's rights.”

In fairness, it doesn’t actually state that men become transsexual to take women’s rights, but it’s still a ludicrously unhinged statement. I just don’t think the average middle class, straight guy knows/cares much about trans issues. And why would this epitome of male privilege not just be basking in the glory of his male privilege if it were so rosy for him?

Thanks Prickly disengage mode engaged.

There’s also the fact that “women” is a huge bracket encompassing many people and many vastly different situations

Yeah. Not male ones though.

Folks, when a new poster pops up on feminism to tell us (on this thread) that women have privilege over men, and on another thread to say feminists are man-haters who think a wolf whistle is sexual assault (despite having it drawn to her or possibly his attention multiple times that no feminist on the thread has said this) and in any case can't see what feminists are worried about because being on the receiving end of a wolf-whistle puts a spring in your step and generally gives a strong impression of hating women rather a lot... well, I tend to do an AS at this stage. It's usually very revealing.

I don't know any bloke that would chop his dick off or wear a dress just to spite women

Under these proposals, men wouldn't need to do either of these things. Do you understand that there will be no gatekeeping?

But do you really believe that there are trans-identified males just doing it to spite women? You say it’s not a hassle but I would imagine it would be a pretty drastic move and require a fair bit of explaining to friends/family for the average male. All just to spite women.

Ruth, why are you asking? When has anyone suggested that a man would do that?

We are discussing the matter of self identification which means a man can identify as a woman without having any medical treatment. I'm not having a go at you, it just looks like you have confused transsexual and transgender?

ruth women don't have privilege that men can take away. There is no "hassle" needed to go through for men wanting to be treated as women. How many women raped by men claiming to be women is the appropriate number before you ask for some legal protections for women? Bear in mind for this last one that men commit 98% of all sexual offences and trans-identified males commit offences at the same rate as other men.

Rosa,

Still, do you think many men would really go through that hassle just to take privilege away from women? Most men I meet are oblivious to all this identity politics and just go about their daily lives providing for their families.

DJ BS

Comparing trans people to the whole of the female gender makes it a difficult comparison. 2-3 women may be killed a week but how many more millions of women are there than trans people? There’s also the fact that “women” is a huge bracket encompassing many people and many vastly different situations - part of why I dislike the umbrella approach used by a lot of modern feminists.

I still maintain that the average trans person will have a harder time in public than the average women in the UK (especially privileged middle class women who so often seem to be the feminists I encounter).

Unbridled Ruth, the point is they don't have to chop off their dicks. They can "self identify". No medical treatment required.

Just one thing: It’s not a contest. It’s not the oppression olympics. There’s no prize worth having anyway.

He's always had a smart arse delivery.

I would agree with Selma's post there, and add that I'm sure I have shared toilets and probably changing rooms with transsexuals before and not had a problem with that. I know they're targets for harassment and violence for some people (largely men, let's not kid ourselves), I know how vicious people (again...) can be about enforcing gender conformity, I've never begrudged trans people or anyone else getting to feel safe.

But. Saying that there shouldn't even be single-sex changing rooms, because everything's fine and women are totally safe and never get harassed by anybody? And shouting down women who disagree? That's not helping keep anybody safe. That's just shitty, entitled male behaviour. And it's impossible not to notice how many right-on, lefty-type men are 'standing up for trans people' by yelling at and insulting women, feminists in particular. Man screaming abuse at trans person going about their everyday business? Meh, don't talk about it. Woman and teenage girls saying "I don't feel safe changing in front of men"? BURN THE HATEFUL WITCH. It's repellent.

People will always pity the least privileged and I think that's a hard pill for a lot of feminists to swallow.

Women do not have privilege over men by virtue of them being women and men.

It must be horrific to genuinely believe that you're in the wrong body and be reviled by both sexes.

I agree with that. These people - formerly known as transsexuals - have been using female changing rooms / bathrooms and nobody cared really.
The problem is that now this is not what trans means. The trans umbrella includes everyone, all you need to do is say you are trans. Travis of Topshop fame has specifically said in an interview that he doesn't identify as a woman. Why should he change in the women's changing room then?

No trans people have been murdered in the UK because they were trans.
2 or 3 women a week are murdered in the UK because they were women.
Women are not protected by hate crime legislation, trans people are.

'They have it harder than women' does not stand up to scrutiny.

There are many societal pressures which might contribute to an adolescent or preadolescent feeling as though there is something fundamentally wrong with their body.

Should we try to understand and reduce those pressures, or should we allow them free rein whilst encouraging the young people affected by them to make drastic and irreversible changes to their otherwise healthy bodies?

Is the latter genuinely the more empathetic approach?

Do people here realise how much the rate of adolescent referrals for female to male gender identity referrals are going up at the moment?

FarFrom of course I do, and if I were a teenager, or in my twenties, i would probably be doing exactly the same.

Being a young woman now, and especially a young gender nonconforming woman, and especially a lesbian, is to be at the very bottom of the pecking order.

In the LGBT+ communities, and especially in the parts that identify as "queer", being a lesbian is not just at the bottom of the pecking order, it is regarded as tantamount to being untrustworthy, a bigot, suspect. Whereas being trans is regarded as forward-thinking, brave, all the good things. Identifying as nonbinary or trans is a teflon coating for young men who want to behave badly, and it's a measure of protection for young women who don't want to be punished for being young women.

I don't blame any young woman one bit for identifying out of womanhood as quick as they can.

Indeed!

Ruth I have almost never posted on these threads because you know you won’t get anywhere but I can’t be the only one who feels like this- and nor can you.

Somedyke not sure what you are talking about but clearly you do so feel no need to explain. Not a very easy or inclusive way of having a conversation.
I really struggle to understand the lack of empathy for people who feel they are born in to the wrong body (regardless what you think the cause of that feeling may be).
Boys and girls are so vulnerable. Both.