James O'Brien: what a twat

If being a white middle class women in the UK is just so awful why on earth would all these dangerous predators be queuing up to join the ranks of the oppressed? Surely they'd just keep on with all their raping and pillaging safe in the knowledge that they can get away with it? Why change and have to face all the many many dangers associated with being a female in 2017?

I think implying women who are concerned about these issues are somehow tantamount to racist apartheid enablers is pretty outrageous.

^^ this. The (inappropriate) comparison is made in order to reframe women as oppressors. It’s part of a calculating attempt at silencing women.

@unbridledruth

I really don’t think the apartheid analogy works at all. Safe spaces for women, and the oppression and exclusion of an entire race based solely on the colour of their skin, are not comparable.

Besides, racial segregation is always wrong and was always wrong. Sex segregation for women’s safety isn’t wrong. No one is really arguing that it is. The issue is whether or not transwomen and/or gender fluid people and/or men who simply self declare they identify as female should be permitted into those spaces.

I think implying women who are concerned about these issues are somehow tantamount to racist apartheid enablers is pretty outrageous.

Ruth you don’t have a full understanding of the situation. 1950s racism is not comparable to the plight of trans people. There are no similarities between a 1950’s boy and a black man getting changed together and a modern day girl and a trans women getting changed together. The trans woman could very well be a man falsely claiming to be trans to gain access. Women and girls are vulnerable. Cast your mind to #metoo.

This is simply a new new wave of misogyny dressed up as progressiveness. It’s ridiculous that women have been silenced or mobbed for speaking out. What’s needed is open frank discussion of how to protect vulnerable women and trans women. Trans needs don’t trump women’s needs.

I wouldn’t be any more fearful of a genuine female identifying trans person

So might you be fearful of a non-genuine female identifying trans person? How would you tell the difference?

Your talking about men protecting thier property women and children just being sean as chattle. As in 'dont steal my gold or fuck my women ' NOT 'let me protect the rights and freedom of this wonderful woman who I of course treat as a equal '

Protectors of women. Fucking spare me.

Otter,

I’d like to say that I wouldn’t be any more fearful of a genuine female identifying trans person solely because they had a penis, but it’s a tough question in all honesty. Partly because I don’t know whether to trust my initial knee jerk feelings.

For sure, most white middle class women wouldn’t have wanted their son getting dressed with a black man 50 years ago, but this doesn’t make it right, especially with the hindsight and progress we have now.

Otterturk,

Yes, I believe that it is largely the men who would’ve picked up the battle axes when neighbouring tribes tried to invade. Most men do actually want to protect women, even if this is a little patronising. This is evident in the ‘women and children first’ mentality displayed and also in the outrage most men exhibit when they see another male being violent to a female - one of my male friends actually got beaten up by three guys outside a pub whilst defending himself from his abusive partner (who is now thankfully his ex and on probation for assaulting her subsequent fella).

They’ve done social experiments on this (probably still on YouTube) and the reaction to a man hitting a woman is MUCH stronger than the reverse.

Ruth - genuine question - if you had a daughter would you be happy for her to get undressed around someone you did not know who has with a fully functioning penis ? In a closed off, private space like a women's bathroom?

Ruth - your reading of millennia of history is of men as protectors of women??!!!

May I ask, are you a woman? An actual woman, not a man who "feels like a woman"?

I missed this but was gutted when I read about it because I agree with J O'B on a lot of things (if not everything), but the transcript just reads terribly. It was like he'd already made up his mind what she was going to say and why (in his head), and therefore decided he didn't need to listen to a word of it before just ranting over her. Half the time he was quoting her as "saying" pretty much exactly the opposite of what she was actually trying to say

I thought the two responses were great though. I hope he will read and consider them at least. It would be good if an opportunity could be made for a real and more reasonable discussion.

I’m not sure it’s that simple, Labra.

I do believe that we live in a patriarchal society yet I don’t think it’s a big conspiracy as many feminists seem to.

Society has evolved over thousands (millions?) of years and it’s only the last few hundred where we’ve had the privilege of focusing on feminist issues. Prior to that, we’d likely have been more worried about raping/pillaging by neighbouring tribes etc. Men would have been our protectors for obvious reasons and one might even have said that the same was true as recently as WW2.

Society is changing for the better but I think a lot of people focus on a very narrow part of the big picture.

Unabridged. That’s not an appropriate comparison. Women are the underdogs in society.

I think people like Muscato are a genuine danger and likely not representative of the majority. In truth, it’s a difficult issue and I do genuinely understand the concern. But I also think there is a lot of thinly veiled hate for trans people, often seemingly for no other reason than the fact they were born a male.

I apologise if I’ve been a bit goady but I hate oppression olympics and think they are often employed by people who love drama/self indulgence.

FFS. JOB is a twat, always has been.

But WHY are women defending biological men invading changing rooms, rape crisis centres, intimate examinations etc. ?!

No one knows what it "feels like" to be the opposite sex. And it is sex, because gender is a societal construct and a load of utter bollocks that harms both 'genders' (sexes).

To me, TERF is not a criticism it's a statement of fact that I am proud of. I am proud because - while I will use requested pronouns and afford dignity to anyone - I do not and will not accept a biological male in the few spaces reserved for biological females. This is NOT bigotry.

Ruth I have to get some kip and I might not have MN time for a couple of days
But I will chat again when I can

Can I just ask, what do you feel when you switch it around and ask, why does someone like Muscato, who Tweeted "suck my dick" on International Women's Day, want access to a woman's toilet, with a gap above the stall etc, or a woman's changing room or a woman's hospital ward? What do we lose if we don't grant that right to those asking?

What makes this so important that's it's going to Parliament? Why do you think the transgender lobby feel so strongly that they must be able to "self identify"?

Why do sex segregated facilities exist in the first place?

Personally I find Rachel Dolzeal's appropriation of black culture to be a more convincing analogy than apartheid.

I’ll bet that when apartheid was abolished there were lots of people who didn’t want to share their spaces with black people. And they also likely had the violent crime stats to back up their argument.

Ruth, no, they turn up looking like Danielle Muscato.

Ereshkigal,

You seriously think that most blokes could just turn up and meet their mates down the pub in a dress. No drama.

Prickly,

I’m not a new user, I’m just posting under a different account for anonymity. And please show me where I said wolf whistling puts a spring in one’s step.

I’m not arguing that women aren’t less privileged than men, more that it’s a bit ludicrous to behold so many middle class women in modern day England portraying themselves as poor little victims. You can say what you like but 93% of women don’t want to call themselves a feminist and I think the above is part of the reason.

Thanks Prickly.

Ruth ". And why would this epitome of male privilege not just be basking in the glory of his male privilege if it were so rosy for him"

He can do both. Get access to women's spaces and keep his privilege.