James O'Brien: what a twat

trans people seem to be successfully employing the same tactics as a lot of feminists and I think they are more likely to get the public sympathy.

How strange. The people who are most at risk from anyone being permitted to enter (what was previously) women-only spaces are women and girls. And yet transpeople are likely to get more sympathy.

Really just highlights how little society gives a shit about women and girls, doesn't it.

Getting back to the OP

He sounds like a nasty piece of work

What the hell is the 'soul' sex about!!

Please dont make me find the full transcript...im afraid

Maybe it just means candles and music

I can't listen to him, I found him a right bully.

The reason I was saying 'yours' not 'ours' etc is because I was replying to a particular poster.

Tbh, I do genuinely see the issue here as previously stated but am probably being a bit more argumentative than usual as I find a lot of feminists to be pretty toxic individuals - sorry if that offends.

My original point, which I've somewhat digressed from is that trans people seem to be successfully employing the same tactics as a lot of feminists and I think they are more likely to get the public sympathy.

I actually do believe in equal rights and likely endorse many of the same issues as many feminists, but the point is that many people (especially men) will see middle class women moaning about wolf whistling etc and then take one look at the troubled teenager who believes they are stuck in the wrong body and conclude that they are the most oppressed. This will not help feminists' case in this battle.

Someone needs to explain Schrödinger's rapist to JoB

He does tend to come off as a patronising and condescending arse at times though, even when he isn't talking about trans vs horrible feminists.

So it’s ok for a trans woman to be terrified of sharing a toilet with men (despite actually being a man) but if a woman was terrified she’s just a privileged bigot whose feelings don’t matter?

"it's only the last few hundred where we’ve had the privilege of focusing on feminist issues. Prior to that, we’d likely have been more worried about raping/pillaging by neighbouring tribes"

So who was doing the raping and who was being raped?

Let’s get those protective men to find a solution Ruth. This is a problem of male aggression so it can be theirs to solve

Trying to actually find a solution that accommodates both natal women and the trans woman who is terrified of using the men's toilet is going to much more productive than talking about sweating leering sex predators and 'men in dresses'.

Yes you carry on your goady antifeminism Ruth. We see you. I CBA.

Yes you carry on your goady antifeminism Ruth. We see you. I CBA.

Also, why are you talking about women in general as “you” and “your”, not “us” and “our”?

You do realise that I've at no point stated that I actually want men to be allowed unrestricted access to women's spaces, right?

I'm just pointing out that in the oppression olympics trans people will likely foster more sympathy than feminists who are already a minority of women and who aren't doing themselves any favours a lot of the time with their thing veiled man-bashing. If anything, the baby will get thrown out with the bath water.

If being a white middle class women in the UK is just so awful why on earth would all these dangerous predators be queuing up to join the ranks of the oppressed? Surely they'd just keep on with all their raping and pillaging safe in the knowledge that they can get away with it? Why change and have to face all the many many dangers associated with being a female in 2017?

Because these are dangers for biological women. It’s not being Travis and dolling yourself up in a woman’s costume that puts you in danger. It’s being weaker smaller and at risk of pregnancy.

Trans may be at risk from other-hating men but they aren’t at risk from women or because of their biology. For men not to understand this is about biology not feelings is infuriating.

Btw Ruth I understand what you are getting at. Most men are unaware of this and have no interest in exploiting women’s spaces. Most men are happy to use their strength to protect women (walking a girlfriend home for instance).

But as #metoo has shown most men have no idea how much aggression against women there is. And no idea what lengths men will go to to get access. They would be baffled by the idea of spy cameras in changing rooms or even just using physical presence to intimidate. But any woman who has ever been leered at and made to feel alarm or flashed at knows that many men use their presence to do just that.

And if you are not sure some men will try to exploit this look at the men insisting they are female to compete in women’s sports.

It’s not the decent men we worry about.

You seem very intent on presenting men as protectors of women, Ruth. So you seem to view women as in some sense vulnerable and under threat. So, who is it you think men are protecting us from? Who is it that poses the most danger to women’s safety? Who are the aggressors in most cases of violence against women and girls? Aliens? Sabre-toothed tigers?

You seriously think that most blokes could just turn up and meet their mates down the pub in a dress. No drama.

THEY. WOULDN'T. HAVE.TO. Which part of this do you not understand exactly?

Selma

Where we differ is that you seem to view men as some homogenous group.

In reality, the average Western woman has more in common with the average Western man than with a Muslim woman from Iran. Obviously not physically but certainly in upbringing and lifestyle.

The men who protected your freedom in WW2 are in no way comparable to or accountable for the actions of the men they were fighting. And that's before we even address the white feather women shaming men into service or the numerous female Nazis who were amongst the most sadistic and feared tyrants at women's camps like Ravensbruck.

Humans, like most animals, are violent and this is unlikely to ever change in the foreseeable future. Even if you create the perfect feminist utopia it will conquered by a more powerful and opportunistic rival without military deterrent.

I really think that a year or two of living under Sharia law would indeed make you grateful towards your protectors.

^^ this. The (inappropriate) comparison is made in order to reframe women as oppressors. It’s part of a calculating attempt at silencing women.

I’m an unenglish, unmiddleclass woman - can i speak? Comparing concerns as being racist is straight out of the TRA handbook of how do shut uppity women - point 6 i believe.

@UnbridledRuth Given that there aren't currently security guards in most toilets to stop men entering, I imagine that the practical solution will be common sense and vigilance much the same as it is now.

Ah, but we will not be able to be vigilant and ask the dodgy ones to leave. It will be us in hot water for doing so - a hate crime.

Granted, it will be more problematic if men can self identify but in reality I'd imagine that genuine trans people will be easier to spot

Oh good, so when I am in the altogether getting changed from swimming, I can leg it when I feel threatened. Then what?

I mean, if a guy makes absolutely effort to dress/appear like a women then he is going to stand out just as starkly in a women's space in the future as he would now.

And there would be sweet fuck all we could do about it.
Options 1: Stay and ignore our spidey senses tingling and then see what happens.
Option 2: Leave i.e be pushed out of the very spaces designated for us. Where should we go then?

You have your line in the sand too, it's just further along than many of us, because you - WADR - have not registered the real and very risky impact of what self-identification means in actuality.

That massive sweaty big bloke over there that keeps giving lechy stares at your tits and standing that bit too close for comfort, he's a woman. He says he is, so what's your problem? Of course he should be allowed into your changing room. Or to conduct your smear test. Or to sleep in the same room as your teenage daughter in a single-sex dorm.

Why are marginalised groups of men a woman's issue? Why don't we focus on male violence instead. Also what about Lisa Hauxwell, Davina Ayryton, they are transwomen who rape. How can I tell which ones are the rapey kind? I know they all aren't but all rapists are men and transwomen are biological males who retain the same pattern of violence as men. What about women's sports, girls sports?

With #MeToo trending and every woman I have ever met having a tale or two why is now a good idea to end same sex provision?

Women won’t be able to evict a non transwoman claiming to be transwomen because it will be seen as discrimination. Women will be cornered into allowing every man who has self certified as a transwoman into women only spaces. Therefore opening the doors wide to sexual harassment of vulnerable girls/women

I have in no way accused anybody of being akin to an apartheid enabler. My comment on apartheid was an observation that attitudes change over time and that several decades from now transwomen may have integrated in a similar way and won't raise any eyebrows.

Given that there aren't currently security guards in most toilets to stop men entering, I imagine that the practical solution will be common sense and vigilance much the same as it is now. Granted, it will be more problematic if men can self identify but in reality I'd imagine that genuine trans people will be easier to spot. I mean, if a guy makes absolutely effort to dress/appear like a women then he is going to stand out just as starkly in a women's space in the future as he would now.

Because they get to claim to be a special kind of woman.