Caitlin Moran article on "why not just tell men to stop?" people

I don't understand what point you're making but I'm happy not to discuss it with you.

It's clearer that your view is a shoulda, woulda, coulda kind of thing, yes.

If you think how one reacts to these things has absolutely no bearing and warrants no discussion that's up to you. I disagree. Is that alright?

My point is that assertiveness has nothing to do with this issue.

The issue is that men are harassing women. Looking at that situation and saying that women should be more assertive is pointless. Men should stop harassing women. That's the only conclusion to come to with that situation.

Yes it's great for women to be assertive. That is an entirely separate thing. However, regardless how assertive women are or aren't men should never harass them, no matter what. So linking the two concepts makes no sense.

Is that clearer?

leCroissant

Can you clarify your intent? You've written that "of course, people should be assertive" but also that, if they're not assertive, it makes no sense to question whether they shouldn't try to be.

I don't feel I have misunderstood the point at all - much as it might seem to you that I have.

'Yeah, sure, victim blaming is a bad thing. Harassment is a bad thing. The onus is, of course, on the abusive to not be arseholes. But, I really do think that it's unhelpful to suggest that people should make no effort whatsoever to learn how to be assertive or set boundaries. We can't shout down as 'victim-blaming' any and all attempts to encourage people learn basic life skills. That's a huge disservice.'

Who's saying that people should make no effort whatsoever to learn to be assertive? You seem to be misunderstanding the point entirely. In a situation where A is behaving badly towards B, it makes no sense to look at B and say 'why don't you change your behaviour?' because B isn't actually doing anything wrong. That's the point of this discussion.

Of course people should be assertive, that helps a lot in life. But asking women why they don't stop harassment, when they aren't actually the ones doing the harassing is just plain wrong. I can change my behaviour yes, but I can't and shouldn't be expected to change the behaviour of other adults.

There are so many variables affecting how we react. Telling us to be sassy is ridiculously oversimplifying the problem.
It also depends how often it happens. I remember an ex freezing when he was touched against his will by a woman. It had never happened before so he didn't know what to do in response. A woman who deals with it every day might be better equipped to deal with it than a woman who rarely suffers harassment/ assault.

That's both interesting and depressing CaptainBrickbeard. Great that your school is addressing the problem. It's really difficult to know what to do about it, as a wider society. It doesn't help that a lot of people seem to think sexism is outdated/ there's no need for feminism anymore/ women have never had it so good when the reality is that we've gone backwards.

I don't think it should be a basic life skill to have to fend off unwanted advances. I would quite happily tell a man who put his hand on my knee to fuck off. So what, that doesnt mean I have more value than my friend, who has some MH issues and who I think would probably struggle with this. I am not prepared to leave other women behind because I have the "skill" to say fuck off.

I was so uplifted reading this yesterday. I hope Jane moore read it. I've been raging all week about her guff column.

She talks great sense that woman.

Is it not a similar dynamic to any situation of one person exercising power over another? These abuses do not exist in a bubble, separate from all other matters of the interpersonal.

I do think that there are differences between sexual harassment and what we might think of as 'standard' bullying - for a start, some sexual harassment can be dealt out almost benevolently: the abuser might be under the delusion that their harassment is welcome and fun.

However, that aside, we all - as friends, as colleagues, and just as people that exist alongside others in a crowded society - understand what bullying is. We've probably all been bullies at some time or other. That exertion of power over another individual - whether to make them feel bad, to have fun at their expense, or to coerce them into doing something they do not want to do - is where the blame lies. No doubt. But, at the same time, as adults we also know that we do need to be able to set out our own boundaries. Having a certain level of robustness where we can tell others what is or is not acceptable is a fundamental life skill. It simply isn't good enough to say that it's ok to passively accept whatever happens to us, because it's other people's fault.

Yeah, sure, victim blaming is a bad thing. Harassment is a bad thing. The onus is, of course, on the abusive to not be arseholes. But, I really do think that it's unhelpful to suggest that people should make no effort whatsoever to learn how to be assertive or set boundaries. We can't shout down as 'victim-blaming' any and all attempts to encourage people learn basic life skills. That's a huge disservice.

What a great article thanks for sharing.

fruitlovingmonkey I agree with you about that shift and I think it's down to the saturation of pornography which is so misogynistic and being accessed by boys who are being conditioned to believe that women are permanently available for them and so they react with anger when denied what they think they are entitled to. I work with teenage boys. In my personal experience, sexism and misogyny is on the rise. Whilst teenagers have always been quick to sexualise everything, now when I use words like 'ruin' or 'destroy', (we were talking about a scene in a particular novel) the 16 year old boys snigger and smirk. How did those words come to be associated with sex and something you do to a woman when you have sex with her? These are nice, normal, well behaved boys who are respectful towards me - but their attitude towards women is clearly being poisoned. It really worries me and my school is looking to specifically address this problem and work with boys on what masculinity actually is or should be. I'm so glad that we are addressing boys in this, not teaching girls that their behaviour is responsible for assaults and harassment and I really hope we have some success.

Also, if you are 'sassy' ( and I learned to be so pretty quickly as a defensive strategy) you may deter some creeps who prefer easier prey. But IME you simultaneously attract other creeps who get a kick out of raping or bullying 'a tough one' into submission. It's no solution, even on an individual self interested level.

I luffs Caitlin Moran. Luffs, luffs, luffs her. She shoots from the hip and I bet she'd be good for a drink and a packet of crisps too.

Great article. I agree with her, although I did find Janice Turner's article about millennials (who won't tolerate a hand on the knee but are very pro-porn and pro-prostitution) thought provoking.
I think there has also been a cultural change in men's responses. 15 years ago, if a man was trying it on in a bar and his attention was unwanted, we would tell him to piss off and he'd slink back to his laughing mates with his tail between his legs. I don't go out enough anymore to say for certain but the few girls' nights I've had in the last 5 years have been peppered with unwanted attention. The men now won't take a simple rebuff and get quite aggressive if you tell them to piss off. I'd like to hear more about this attitude shift from younger women, it's not something that is talked about. Caitlin got me thinking: perhaps sass was a good response in the past but it could be very dangerous now.

Men are scared women will laugh at them; women are scared men will kill them.

Well said Caitlin! I wish I hadn't read the comments underneath though. The second one down as I saw it began, "Women are getting tedious as a species..."

Excellent article and agree with rogue that referring to Julia Hartley Brewer.

I was assaulted once on public transport, and instead of saying or doing anything I completely froze. Before this happened I would have said I would have shouted/ pushed/ slapped but I just couldn't. I'm sure there's an evolutionary/ biological reason for this and I wish it was highlighted more often that this is a common response. If it was well known maybe we'd have less "why didn't she say anything at the time".

Matt Frei on C4 was asking a female interviewee why more women don't just say no firmly. Talk about victim blaming.

I didn’t see this, but was he actually victim blaming or simply giving the interviewee a chance to address the question that, unfortunately, many people ask?

That is damningly good.

I did have the same thought as DJ - that even the best sassy responses won't always work anyway; they might be effective against a chance fondle in public, but not against a really determined rapist for example. But still this speaks a LOT of truth to me.

If you were sassy and it worked you were lucky, not clever. Some men are prepared to use violence and sass really doesnt do anything in that kind of situation except make them angry.
We cant tell from the outset who is going to be put off by assertiveness and who is going to punch us. Men really dont get this.

Hear hear.

Matt Frei on C4 was asking a female interviewee why more women don't just say no firmly. Talk about victim blaming. Good old Caitlin Moran. I assume she's referring to Julia Hartley Brewer. I will just say
that I have great difficulty with JHB.

Brilliant arguments. I don't have a subscription though. Paywalls

Yup. It's victim blaming crap to tell women that it's their responsibility to just deal with it / tell them to stop / give them a swift slap to bring them back to their senses / make a joke of it / some other ridiculous suggestion that obviously no woman has ever thought of...