Women prefer working for male bosses

hauled over the carpet for it.
Snort!
I didn’t misunderstand anything. I think you know that already though. 💩

The suggestion that a bullying female manager is just being judged more harshly or is a "victim of the patriarchy" is equa parts laughable and offensive. please explain why? I don’t think it is funny at all. And I can’t see who it offends.
I was simply giving some wider context regarding how women are viewed in the workplace. Here is some more: www.independent.co.uk/news/business/gender-stereotypes-pose-mental-health-threat-to-female-bosses-9883152.html
If you are unable to make the intellectual link between environment and behaviour then we probably can’t have a sensible discussion.
Did you say you’re a lawyer upthread?

If you are an employer and bullying is occurring in your organisation then it is incumbent on you to change the culture. The people at the top set the tone

Oh yes, having completely got the wrong end of the stick turn it round like that. No, we don't have a bullying culture- we have a couple of senior women out of a very large workforce one of whom I know has just been hauled over the carpet for it.

"Flair for melodrama" -nice little put down there. You have been making ridiculous excuses for bullies.

Sunshine - I can't take your comments seriously. You clearly didn't read or understand my posts.

The suggestion that a bullying female manager is just being judged more harshly or is a "victim of the patriarchy" is equa parts laughable and offensive.

How on earth is"Performance review gender bias" relevant in the situations I described?

As I said I've been in the situation of trying to sort out the mess caused by this sort of behaviour, not at the receiving end.

Cos Patriarchy.

If you are an employer and bullying is occurring in your organisation then it is incumbent on you to change the culture. The people at the top set the tone.
I have not justified nor excused bullying, giving reasons for behaviour occurring is not condoning it. You do have quite the flair for melodrama.

It is not making excuses, it is saying:
Is women’s behaviour really that poor, or do we judge women more harshly?
And
Consider the context in which women operate, that will have a bearing on their behaviour.
This article could help illuminate some of the themes.
fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias/

lass we are all products of our environment. Bullying tends to have more to do with the culture of the organisation rather than what is between ones legs. I’d look for another job if I were you
Women and men suffer under the patriarchy.
So even when being an outright bully a woman is still a victim
Bullying tends to be borne of insecurity and lack of self esteem, a sense of not having any serious power, so I agree these women are victims of the patriarchy

I'm appalled. Absolutely appalled at that. Justifying and excusing workplace bullying is obscene.

I am not talking about myself. I am an employer. I am talking about behaviours of other women at my level of seniority towards employees.

There is a huge difference between being assertive and publicly tearing a strip off a junior assistant in public in an open plan office
It sounds as though you are speaking from a personal experience?

Yes, I am. I am neither the manager or the employee but one of the people who has had to deal with the mess.

Don't think anyone is suggesting that it isn't their fault

SomeDyke is.

Do you think women in general are worse managers than men in general lass?

I have said several times I have been fortunate enough to deal with people who have been generally fine. Of the small number who weren't, more were female. Make of that what you want.

I have also been told by trainees there are certain women they did not want to work; not just that they didn't want to work in a certain department but rather it was a specfic female individual they didn't want to work for. That accords with the OP.

I find the excuses some posters are making for poor behaviour by women quite astonishing.

lass we are all products of our environment. Bullying tends to have more to do with the culture of the organisation rather than what is between ones legs. I’d look for another job if I were you.
Women and men suffer under the patriarchy.

So even when being an outright bully a woman is still a victim.
Bullying tends to be borne of insecurity and lack of self esteem, a sense of not having any serious power, so I agree these women are victims of the patriarchy.

There is a huge difference between being assertive and publicly tearing a strip off a junior assistant in public in an open plan office.
It sounds as though you are speaking from a personal experience?

I've had a few more female than male bosses, had issues with both the men and the women, had one fantastic male boss and one fantastic female boss. Biggest bully was a man. Astounded by these reports of horrendous female and good male bosses in law firms. My experience is that the total twats, the ones who yell and shout and don't bother themselves with such things as having a modicum of respect for underlings have been men. I do think an awful lot of it is different perceptions of the same behaviour.

Is it their fault if it's innate as you seem to be suggesting?

I did not say it was innate. Please stop inventing things. I have said several times that the vast majority of people I have worked with were fine but of the small number who weren't the women exceeded the men. And stop making up excuses. "It is not their fault is a pathetic response".

Except this is their personal response to what is probably a non-equal situation. The playing field is not level, that is the deeper observation, and it is a rather shallow response to just blame it on so many (or more than men at least?) female managers being shit. We need to look at the wider context, and what this (if it stands up to scrutiny) is possibly a response to

I can't take this seriously. I really can't. A bully is a bully. I am talking about a small number of senior women- senior associate and partner. They have already proved their ability to deliver work to clients so talk of a level playing field at that stage is nonsense.

"A personal response to a non equal situation" yes- I wonder why it didn't occur to me to say that to the junior assistant (female as it happened) who has just had her confidence knocked for 6 , yet again, by having something she drafted ripped to pieces , for no reason other the senior female manager could.

I am talking about women who bully and shout at staff - who nit pick and micro manage, who put red pen through drafting just for the sake of it. It is most certainly their fault

Don't think anyone is suggesting that it isn't their fault.
Just that women aren't more likely to be shit managers than men.
Do you think women in general are worse managers than men in general lass?

I've been told I was the best boss that person had ever had. So proud! Although she was very easy to manage and we're still friends (the comment was made quite late on on her hen night!).

The one person at work who has consistently been supportive of me at work was an old female boss. She is very good at her job and her excellence has made it possible for other women (including me) to move into that role. Actually we've got quite a few female bosses at work who champion the careers of women below them. There are some that have negative reputations but no more than the men. FWIW the people I've come across who have been the biggest liars, the most devious and the most likely to stab you in the back have all been male. All very ambitious but without the skill or decency to match it.

I think being a good boss is hard though, I know I've got better at it with time. Managing the balance between being 'nice and supportive' against providing constructive criticism is hard and I think inexperienced managers tend to either try and be everyones friend or try to distance themselves by being overly critical. Or you spend too long trying to avoid the faults you've seen in your own bosses and so create new ones yourself. I feel like there's a big overlap between being a manager and a parent at time, you are trying to give people the skills to achieve what they want to achieve and not fuck them up too much!

I work in a female dominated organisation (well below director level certainly). Most of the people who have helped develop my career are very senior women. All supportive, helpful, friendly to the appropriate point.i don't recognise these "bitches" people talk about. Some men and some women are a bit rubbish at their jobs.

"I am talking about women who bully and shout at staff - who nit pick and micro manage, who put red pen through drafting just for the sake of it. It is most certainly their fault."
Except this is their personal response to what is probably a non-equal situation. The playing field is not level, that is the deeper observation, and it is a rather shallow response to just blame it on so many (or more than men at least?) female managers being shit. We need to look at the wider context, and what this (if it stands up to scrutiny) is possibly a response to.

I just remember the stories of female academics where:
"....first commenced her work as an academic, she had been ejected from the staff room by a colleague who commented when she told him she was an academic, ‘Okay—you just don't look like …"
Because they were black, because they were women, their faces didn't fit............

I’ve never come across these nit picking micro managing female managers that seem to be such a plague. I’ve met the bullies though. That’s an equal opportunities poor management style all right.

I am talking about women who bully and shout at staff - who nit pick and micro manage, who put red pen through drafting just for the sake of it. It is most certainly their fault.

Is it their fault if it's innate as you seem to be suggesting?

But it's not our fault if we fail to be perfect when the whole game is still weighted against us............We need to look a bit deeper as to why women react like this.................

Do you think the terrible managers I am talking about just "failed to be perfect?"

I am talking about women who bully and shout at staff - who nit pick and micro manage, who put red pen through drafting just for the sake of it. It is most certainly their fault.

I should probably add that as a female who works in a very male dominated industry (not my role as such but the industry certainly) it is wonderful to have a boss understand how difficult and frustrating that can sometimes be.

So perhaps i may have a slight preference.

On the other hand my last boss was a man - his wife worked in the same industry as both of us (just not with either of us) and he also understood - to an extent. Perhaps not as much as if he had been on the receiving end but I can't really blame him for that.

My female bosses have only been interested in brown nosers, and are more concerned about them being the friend rather than the boss.

Male bosses have come across more business first.

I now assume women will not be good managers and I have not been disappointed in this assumption

I assume both men and women will be good managers until they demonstrate otherwise.

I do not however deny women can be terrible managers nor make up excuses for them when they are.

This:
"This is often why it feels like ethnic / racial minorities and women are held to a higher standard - because each individual is expected to represent the group, while with straight white men we see each individual as just representative of that individual."
When women (such as my wife) were in a very male-dominated environment, they were not allowed to be mediocre, they had to prove their right to be there by repeatedly coming top of the class. The underlying reality is that we still don;t have the mythical level playing field, hence (given preponderance of middle-aged white males in government/management etc etc) men are allowed to be a bit shit, whereas women who have managed to achieve positions of power can respond by feeling that it isn't due to this issue that more women aren't there with them, but that they personally are so much better than the rest. Why can't you all achieve, I have (by my own merits)? Rather than admit that they might have been bloody lucky, or have had to work harder than their male colleagues to achieve the same position.
Until things are more equal, womens responses to either their own achievements, or the achievements of women around them, aren't necessarily going to be equal either. But it's not our fault if we fail to be perfect when the whole game is still weighted against us............We need to look a bit deeper as to why women react like this.................

She's also pretty feminist too.

I couldn't say if I have a preference. I honestly don't know.

My current boss is a woman and I like her very much. It is however interesting when I mention "my boss" to anyone usually hey assume I am talking about a man.