Best tweet ever on trans madness

I think we there needs to be a campaign to collect these stories. Sort of like "Everyday Sexism" where people can submit incidents where their female rights have been trumped by trans inclusive policy and practices.

I just wondered if anyone has successfully kept public spaces safe and especially toilets for girls and women. Genuine query, but thanks, I won't disrupt further.

Mentioned this on another thread but a late transitioning TW used the female changing rooms at my local council sports arena. These are old totally old style open plan communal changing and communal showers.,the women were very uncomfortable. One woman raised a complaint when this TW walked in as she was showering. She was basically told she had the problem and would have to deal with it and shower/change in the single dissbled fscility.

No I didnt say all women believe what I do. But many do. And whenever there are surveys about sex segregation the majority of women are in favour of retaining sex segregation. Why are their views less? Well I know why. Because they are women.

That's about it :)

Muslims: 'Hey, our 1400 year old book written by misogynistic men says women can't mix with men'.

Government: 'Not a problem, that's not sexist at all'.

Women: 'Millions of women and girls in the UK have been raped and sexually abused by men, we need women's spaces.'

Government: 'DIE TERF SCUM.'

Perhaps there needs to be an NGRC as well (non-gender reassignment certificate)

People could be certified by doctors and certain spaces would only be open to those with an NGRC?

Yes :)

Well one particular religion at least.

That wouldn't even do it. They don't care about rape victims. As you say, religion is the only grounds I think they would currently think twice about.

Or to put it another way, to the extent that sex separating is ever justifiable, transgender people must also be excluded. It is the body that is the issue not the meaningless 'ladybrain'.

Or do you have to have a 'rape recognition certificate' to have any rights as a woman?

Totally agree.

It's a bit of a brainfuck TBH. If you can show that a Muslim woman doesn't want employment services from a man, then it's ok to make it a job for a woman, but if you then say that person cannot be a transwoman, then the same Muslim woman is being a hateful bigot for not wanting to deal with them?

Or to put it another way, it's ok for a Muslim woman not to want to do something with a man because of her religion, but is it ok for an atheist woman not to want do something with a man because her lifelong experience of rape and sexual harassment?

Nonsensical TBH.

These are just examples and the Equality Act doesn't really say any particular job is reserved, it's all subject to reasonableness.

Exactly. And what is considered reasonable is subjective.

The Equality Act says:

"This paragraph replicates the effect of exceptions for occupational requirements in current discrimination legislation, and creates new exceptions in relation to disability and to replace the existing exceptions for occupational qualifications in relation to sex, gender reassignment, colour and nationality. It differs from the existing exceptions for occupational requirements in that it makes clear that the requirement must pursue a legitimate aim and that the burden of showing that the exception applies rests on those seeking to rely on it."

"Examples

The need for authenticity or realism might require someone of a particular race, sex or age for acting roles (for example, a black man to play the part of Othello) or modelling jobs.

Considerations of privacy or decency might require a public changing room or lavatory attendant to be of the same sex as those using the facilities.

An organisation for deaf people might legitimately employ a deaf person who uses British Sign Language to work as a counsellor to other deaf people whose first or preferred language is BSL.

Unemployed Muslim women might not take advantage of the services of an outreach worker to help them find employment if they were provided by a man.

A counsellor working with victims of rape might have to be a woman and not a transsexual person, even if she has a Gender Recognition Certificate, in order to avoid causing them further distress."

These examples appear to relate both to sex and gender reassignment, i.e. it is clear that you can exclude a transwoman from a rape counselling job, but it is not clear that you can exclude them from a women's toilet attendant job (the example appears to refer to sex rather than gender reassignment).

These are just examples and the Equality Act doesn't really say any particular job is reserved, it's all subject to reasonableness.

If we don't keep and strengthen the exemptions in the EA we might as well just give up. Gender reassignment as a protected characteristic is so vague as to include virtually everyone, whether trans or not.

And if the person has a GRC, then you can't exclude them at all, they are legally of the acquired sex.

Not quite true. The EA specifically mentions that even TW with GRC can be excluded from work as a rape counsellor. So they recognise that legal sex is different to actual sex. That's the example they give of when it may be legitimate to do so. Of course these exemptions aren't being used, which allows people like Puresummer to claim it's all done and dusted. We need to get the exemptions strengthened and resist TAs' efforts to get rid of them. Public pressure for women's rights, like the A Woman's Place campaign, could achieve this. That is specifically one of the aims.

Yeah. But it sounds like fizzywater may have just peak-transed...

I think robin is probably very well-meaning but simply hasn't kept up with what's going on or thought much about the implications.

I think perhaps robin is forgetting that with self-identification there is no way to tell a TIM from a predatory male pretending to be a TIM.

So how does changing the GRA so that people can self-identify help with that exactly?

I think a trans person in female clothes would be likely subjected to harassment and violence from men because they're "different". I think they're likely to suffer discrimination at work for the same reason

I think it's more likely to mean that trans people are protected from discrimination and violence

How?

I think the laws against assault, indecent exposure etc are effective enough. There is cctv in most of these places e.g. Changing rooms.

I just don't think that these laws are going to mean that any old bloke is going to exposure himself in topshop changing rooms, any more than they usually would.

I think it's more likely to mean that trans people are protected from discrimination and violence, which seems to be a good thing to me.