Newsnight looking at issue of men!

All the bleating about 'can't even look at a woman now'.......As a lesbian, I have managed to be around various women professionally for many years, including colleagues and students from many countries and different cultures. And for some strange reason, I manage to interact perfectly amicably without pawing people all the time, and without 'worrying' about normal interactions leading to being accused of sexual harassment. Because I know the difference, perhaps, between looking and leering. Because I don't feel an uncontrollable urge to help my female colleagues when they are doing ordinary stuff like walking (think Trump and Teresa) . Because I don't feel an uncontrollable urge to drape myself around someone when I'm trying to indicate something on a screen. Because most of my female colleagues, I frankly don't touch them. There is no need to. Because I realize that different cultures and different sexes mean that anything other than a firm handshake isn't always appreciated! Nor do I punch them on the arm, or put an arm around their shoulders or any of the other things that some men seem to feel are appropriate ways to behave to their male colleagues. And so far, as I said, I've not been accused of sexual harassment (although I have been accused of homophobia buts that's another whole can of worms!)

To paraphrase Professor 'Enry 'Iggins 'Why can't a man be more like a dyke!'

and most significantly, do not behave like this to women who have the power to fire them!

Yeah funny that. This is all about power. And who has it.

Datun "I’ve reached the conclusion that men, yes almost all of them, are incompetent, blind, sexist and simply live in an entirely different dimension to the one that I inhabit."

me too. I was going to watch this on catch up but I won't bother.

I hope Datun and OP won't mind me saying this here but it doesn't seem worth another thread - but all the years I have been accused of paranoia about men and their intentions - I was right. It is much easier to be physically stand offish so no one touches you and it's not missing out on anything that I haven't bothered making male friends for the last few years.

how does male suicide even appear in a discussion about men harassing women?!

When I say "about this", I mean it was about men's predatory behaviour towards women, not about last night's programme.

I caught the very end of a discussion about this on Radio 2, and didn't know who the participants were, but the last word went to a woman who pointed out that these men know exactly what they are doing, know what appropriate boundaries are, and most significantly, do not behave like this to women who have the power to fire them!

This is a nice article which is a soothing antidote to people who put themselves through Newsnight.

And although it’s about sexual harassment at Westminster, everything in it can be applied everywhere else.

There are people out there who understand. I promise.

www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2017/nov/01/westminster-sexual-assault-allegations-already-being-minimised?CMP=share_btn_tw

I've just watched this on catch up.

So angry with all the "woe is me can't even look at a woman now" bull shit.
The only 2 men who were remotely sympathetic and trying to call out the victim blaming were just talkedshouted over.

How can a show dedicated to the problem of male violence have so few women actually there.

Seemed little more than an elaborate defence. Zebras ffs

I think if you posted that “lift” story on social media, it would bring some of your male friends up short to realise the lengths women have to go to inorder to avoid sexual assault.

I meant to say I was lucky that my experiences were never that bad (unlike many friends) so I feel it's particularly cowardly that I'm afraid of speaking up on social media. If I'm concerned about the consequences, how much worse for women who've had worse experiences. I do realise it was mostly down to luck that I managed to get away. My experiences of reporting have been pretty bad, if I was genuinely hurt I'm not sure I could face it.

and a colleague who gave me a lift 'home' then wouldn't let me out of the car and wasn't driving towards my house, threw myself out of a moving car to get away (he did slow down when realised I was going to do it)) and in neither case did reporting achieve anything other than my career being threatened by my boss.

^ This is objectively shocking and awful - not a “nothing serious” experience. Puts men’s concerns about whether it’s OK to touch someone’s arm into context.

I keep thinking about last night’s Newsnight and those men thinking it was OK to touch women. How about you touch women with as little presumption and pawing as you use with male strangers and acquintances? And if you’re not sure how it will be received just exercise some restraint and don’t do it? That guy going on about banter/jokes and putting his arms around women at work probably leaves a trail of uncomfortable female colleagues and a reputation for being “handsy” in his wake, he’s just too ignorant to see it. We’ve all worked with at least one octopus, right?

Oh how depressing. I will avoid watching this now, but discussion on the radio the other day had me seething. I am so depressed that after the power of #metoo that the media debate has become about whether men can touch a woman's arm and poor things they don't know what they're allowed to do. FFS. If only those were the only problems women faced!

And I'm ashamed that I haven't publicly said #metoo because I'm afraid of any consequences. And yes, of course, #metoo but actually my experiences were never that bad and I managed to get away. Also, I reported it twice (a flasher and a colleague who gave me a lift 'home' then wouldn't let me out of the car and wasn't driving towards my house, threw myself out of a moving car to get away (he did slow down when realised I was going to do it)) and in neither case did reporting achieve anything other than my career being threatened by my boss.

What world have I brought two DDs into?

Lancelottie

Call it effective communication, or something similar. Because everyone will pride themselves on how well they can communicate. And for men, that will be shouting the loudest.

I might put DD up to it as her independent 6th-form research project, actually.

Might have to give it a more obscure title so as not to give the game away.

Lancelottie

Could you actually do that? I’m sure there are companies who would do it for you.

It’s such a well-known phenomenon. But people still disagree. By people , I mean men.

You could get two children, a boy and a girl. Standing at the front and just ask them to tick a column over who speaks and who interrupts. Don’t tell them why.

(It would also be quite interesting if they came up with the same results. You might need to film it to determine the accuracy).

Bet there would be ethical problems over it, but I'd love to go and record a PHSE day at school.

For anyone that missed it - feast your eyes: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09dgfrq/newsnight-01112017

Lancelottie

That is a little daydream of mine. To record meetings, lessons in school, Parliamentary debates. And then play them back with an analysis.

The best one would be debate over feminism, or sexism.

What would be interesting is to:
Invite an evenly split panel onto a programme to discuss women's issues.
Allow the programme to run its course.
Wind up with the usual guff.
Then pause for five minutes and show, maybe graphically, who spoke for how long; who interrupted; who first sidetracked the discussion onto some issue other than the one at hand.

It might work even better if no one warned the interviewer.

You're so right seeing. I would have loved to hear more from the women panellists and I'm sure they could have got plenty of women to represent the audience. Ended up being more of the same old shit

So disappointed. This programme was an opportunity missed.

The voices at the very beginning were powerful and the rest of the programme could have developed a meaningful exploration of, e.g., the range of ways in which men abuse women - rape, unwanted touch, using women's bodies even in public places, abuse of women in domestic settings and so on. They could have discussed power relationships in a patriarchy, so not just the very obvious power relationships between employer and employee, minister and assistant, movie mogul and actresses, but also the power men in general have over women in general in all aspects of our lives. They could have talked about the way boys and girls are socialised and the whole range of ways these messages are communicated and reinforced - boys are active, girls are passive and so on. And how incredibly hard it is to speak out or react in the moment or afterwards. The way women and girls have to justify themselves and are constantly second guessing themselves.

At the women's march in our small town last spring the monies collected in the buckets were donated 50/50 to the local women's aid and a local charity concerned solely with male suicide.

Yes men we know all about the male suicide rate, we're concerned and we're trying to help. I don't believe, or certainly have never experienced, women attending a discussion or debate about some of the awful issues men have to contend with and trying to turn the discussion into women's agenda.

Sorry, I'm ranting now, need to double the blood pressure meds tonight.

Right, I will cross that off my list of things to watch. Thanks for the heads up.

I’ve reached the conclusion that mean, yes almost all of them, are incompetent, blind, sexist and simply live in an entirely different dimension to the one that I inhabit.

I've just finished watching and, based on the discussion, I've learned...

1. if there's a problem, it's best to ask men about it
2. it's awful that men might not be able to touch women casually (without first finding out I'd the woman is happy with that)
3. sexual harassment could be solved if women would only behave properly
4. man are sad and that's worse than anything

What a load of old bollocks

Witch - missed that. Yeah, then more likely that he took the chance to mention something he is concerned about, regardless of the fact that it was irrelevant to the discussion at hand.