Newsnight looking at issue of men!

Interesting that Forest seems to be linking promiscuity (I assume consensual sex with many partners) with harrassment/assault (non consensual sexual touching, comments). That seems very common.

I think as a nation we have very very little understanding of consent. The is so popular I think, because it's never been a clear idea in many people's heads.

I was amazed when I joined mumsnet because women here could explain really clearly what consent was. to them - they totally changed my understanding.

That poor understanding of consent enables (not causes) harrassment/assault being normal, and a public (male) reaction that it's "just one of those things" or "any one of us could be accused etc"

I'm fairly sure the adult males doing the harrassing/assaulting have a perfectly good understanding of consent, to be clear.

So it can't be the case that men just don't understand what's inappropriate - they're doing it deliberately because they feel entitled/able to do so and enjoy it

I think this just about sums it up. I've always worked in really informal environments and sometimes in a more confined space such as behind a bar where you have to squeeze past eachother or touch eachother to get attention as it's so loud. You do often end up quite close to the other staff members and maybe even loose the worries about catching change their t shirts in the corner etc sometimes you were even at the hugging point etc

But

Those same staff members would still jump in there to have a go at customers who thought they could "join in". Who thought that your work friend whacking you with a tea towel or throwing an ice cube at you was am invitation to ping your underwear or comment on your arse.

It is possible to read the situation, to know when someone is comfortable and happy with the interactions and how far is too far. It doesn't mean you have a "touch free life" and that the male staff members can't come near you. Those who spout nonsense such as "can't even do X Any nore" are probably the slime balls who have never worried about how they make someome feel or cant refrain from taking things to far. That it's all or nothing.

You're suggesting that most men simply don't understand what's inappropriate, @ForestDad. So the response is to think of ways to make it abundantly clear, in the manner of the Rock test. Yet you say this will not work. So it can't be the case that men just don't understand what's inappropriate - they're doing it deliberately because they feel entitled/able to do so and enjoy it.

I'm not a rocket scientist so fortunately I am fine thanks. I don't have a problem with boundaries. I'm not an expert on gender sociology. I was trying to explain a bit of why I think that this happens and that there are wider underlying societal drivers. You don't agree. I really hope that just by telling people not to do something they will stop. They might, I just don't think they will. Bon nuit.

Jumping the statistics used last night really jumped out at me too. I agree completely that 91% of men thinking pinching a woman’s bum isn’t okay is depressing. But what really pissed me off most was that they only surveyed men. How about what percentage of women are happy to have their bum pinched/leg touches. Because surely that’s the statistic that actually matters. I don’t give a flying fuck if a man thinks he’s fine to touch me anywhere, if I don’t want him to then it’s my choice.

Forest. If you’re not sure, don’t touch. It’s not that difficult.

Or ask would I touch a man this way? If the answer is no, don’t do it.

Have you heard of the Rock test, Forest? Just treat all women that aren't your family or friends like you'd treat The Rock/Dwayne Johnson and you'll be fine. It's not rocket science.

Forest " Saying "all touching is wrong" is ridiculous"

Has anyone on this thread said that? Why are you talking about friends and family?!

Forest, none of that gives any reason that men can't follow the rules I stated.

Abeauty - I'm not going to fall into your well-laid trap again of telling you what women are like/are thinking etc. just so you can tell me I'm wrong.
I do think you have to be really careful when talking about the touching thing though. Saying "all touching is wrong" is ridiculous. I have many friends and family and we shake hands/hug/kiss on cheek/put arm around each other when happy/sad/affectionate etc. This is not wrong. Unless you are more specific you will alienate more people than you influence.

It is valid because they are both complex problems that won't be fixed by telling people "don't touch anyone". Things don't just happen. There are reasons/causes for them. In a society human behaviour is shaped and caused by many different factors and these make the society the way it is.

As an example I grew up in the 90s when the lad culture was the crucible of male identity. It was cool to objectify women and the general feeling was that promiscuity was brilliant and having long-term fulfilling relationships was boring. Because of this I aspired to it, despite not actually being what I wanted which I've now come to realise. Not being able to achieve what I thought I wanted made me a bit miserable.
Are things better or worse now I don't really know. It seems that there is more tolerance and that people are more likely to be accepted for who they are than they were 20 years ago, but perhaps that's just because I'm older and see more diversity.

So you think women are better at "hiding their feelings" than men. Can you think of any reasons why that might be the case? Why might women have developed ways to hide their disgust/fear/anger/upset?

I'm sure you realise but you're essentially placing responsibility for this on women. Women don't respond in a way that prevents harassment, and it is inevitable that (heterosexual) men will want to harass women as it's part of the "sexual dynamic".

Don't touch, don't make sexual remarks, don't make personal remarks. Sorted.

And this is completely correct.

The reason this doesn’t work is because men continue to feel that they have an entitlement to women. Whether it’s touching them (however lightly on non-sexual), or not caring if their behavior is intimidating. Or, quite often, relying on it.

Thankfully, they are now realising they are completely wrong.

Forest, that is not a valid comparison.

Also you mention dealing with the causes of the issues. What does that mean?

Slim if it was that simple it would be sorted. Lots of people are killed or hurt in car accidents or when they get drunk.
Simple solution, don't crash your car or drink too much.

See? I've solved the problems.

ABeauty, not sure! Perhaps because men are generally worse at hiding their feelings, like if someone's being inappropriate my "f off" face kicks in long before I've noticed and they pick up on that. Or because I'm wrong and all men who are inappropriate are just lecherous gits.

(At the risk of going on about men), we generally make each other uncomfortable in different ways, probably not sexual but say intimidating physically or mentally, saying inappropriate things, asking inappropriate Qs etc. But you can't really compare it because in the straight population there isn't that sexual dynamic, which I guess is the point!

Forest " But unless you address the causes of issues you won't solve them, telling men "don't harass women" without looking a bit deeper is a populist simplistic solution to a deep complex problem."

It's not a complex problem. It doesn't require a complex study.

Don't touch, don't make sexual remarks, don't make personal remarks. Sorted.

How do these poor unempathetic men manage not to do it to other men? Are they capable of understanding when they might be making a man feel uncomfortable, but not a woman?

I watched the prog last night, here's my 2p:
Wouldn't reasonable to have an all-female show entitled "the problem with men" would it? I think that the male "audience" was broadly representative of men in society from some guys telling people off for victim-blaming to ?the majority who seemed confused by the issues. I felt sorry for the guy who said he never touched anyone.
The bald guy on the panel was a long way off though.
Going back to the points about harassment in the workplace/life, there seem to be some people (more men than women) who don't have enough empathy to understand when they are making someone uncomfortable. From uncomfortably long handshakes, overfamiliarity etc. these people don't seem to be aware what they are doing. Wrong but generally not malicious. Can be difficult to discern this from...
other people who do the same things (and worse) but specifically for their own gratification. They may try to excuse this as "harmless fun" etc. but they know why they are doing it. At the risk of stating the obvious this is wrong.
The point that flower hair guy from Rizzle kicks was trying to make was I think to do with the reasons why men are the way they are. Yup, I'm mansplaining! But unless you address the causes of issues you won't solve them, telling men "don't harass women" without looking a bit deeper is a populist simplistic solution to a deep complex problem.

Anyone seen This Week tonight? Andrew Neil basically taking the piss out of events in Westminster, implying the sexual misconduct issue is all a bit silly, ha ha ha. Portillo being a completely out of touch and devoid of insight. Harriet Harman utterly inept in getting her point across. And worst of all Edmina Curry being a victim blaming handmaiden. Possibly the worst behaviour I have ever seen by a woman on the media, in terms of failing to support other women.

This confected outrage from men is ridiculous. I have worked in a number of different environments over the last 20 years and in none of them did make employees ever touch female colleagues bar a handshake.
Everyone knows what the rules are. They’re not hard to understand and not painful to follow.

I don't touch my colleagues either, male or female, unless I know for certain that the contact will be welcomed (colleague leaving do when he is going round giving everyone goodbye hugs, for example). Funnily enough, it works quite well

Newsnight better tonight with Kirsty Wark, 2 women and one man.

Ah, but the man has now started mansplaining! FFS!

SomeDyke - I hate the bleating too.

re this though "Because I don't feel an uncontrollable urge to help my female colleagues when they are doing ordinary stuff like walking (think Trump and Teresa)"

I thought that was the other way around - he needs a hand walking over slopes or something, to aid with balance? (I mean physical balance, clearly there's no helping Dump's mental balance).

I think I was most shocked at the survey results. They were presented in a 'at least we all agree on the extremes' kind of way eg 91% of people think pinching a woman on the bum is harassment, isn't that great, kind of thing. Err no it isn't because that means pretty much 1 in 10 people think it's ok, which is bloody awful and wasn't pointed out at all.