R4 Today programme have an item on later about children and gender dysphoria.

On the other hand, though, Stop, we know that middle-aged and older white men with lots of professional qualifications are taken more seriously by the media than other groups. If a feminist was on saying this stuff, she'd get a load of abuse. When professional men say these things, people stop and listen.

Hipsterfun.

That is a great post. Agree with every word.

Fair enough hipster - I know that's a problem. The trouble is a 15 year old is not listening to the Today programme, they are getting all their news from "people like them". Until "people like them" are talking to them about failed neo-vaginas and gay eugenics, then the problem persists. I imagine the same conversation is being had over radicalisation.

You seemed to have changed your mind on this issue Iris65, mind if I ask what it was that changed it?

Just a pity they are both white middle (late) age men, being interviewed by another one. Not exactly going to appeal to the young activists we need to get active in social media to counter what teenagers are being bombarded with.

This seems to me another problem with identity politics. We’re teaching young people, and encouraging each other, to see other people in categories.

The ‘I can’t be what I can’t see’ idea is a nonsense (and flies in the face of the evidence all around us) and seems to extend on to ‘If someone who isn’t like me is saying it, it isn’t possible to take it on board’; it’s regressive thinking presented as progressive. Well meaning but badly thought through and often adopted entirely uncritically.

We need to be able to listen for what is being said.

Christ that Reddit thread is bonkers and horrifying in equal measure:

“From what I have read it is not scar tissue that is created, and somehow the neovagina once created will eventually convert some of the skin-tissue to mucus secreting vaginal lining through no extra surgical step. Almost as if the tissue inherently knows what its supposed to be somehow.

Google scholar has a case study from Latin America where this technique was used on a teenage cis-girl who lacked a vaginal opening from-birth and makes the claim that she gets wet when aroused and is capable of having satisfying sex with it.”

I cannot believe some of these blokes think there is any link between surgery on a woman’s body and surgery in a man’s and are drawing parallels. The lack of wilful understanding of basic physiology is shocking.

Although, it was interesting that they all assumed that the transwomen in question are gay.

I got the impression those were some of the more aware voices from the trans community. Possibly because they had faced the harsh reality of what "being trans" really did mean for them on a personal level.

A different world entirely from screaming "bigot" or "die TERFs" at women while being standing comfortably in a mob.

As ever, it illustrates one of the key messages that people from outside the debate need to hear: the world of trans comprises different communities with some deserving more understanding than others.

I guess it was a measured, sensible, productive debate because none of the TRA people were invited? How very telling.

I thought Prof Butler was actually cautious in his views. He acknowledges the difference between gender identity difficulties which are extremely entrenched and the "new wave" of adolescents with "sudden onset dysphoria", and that they don't know the best way to treat them.

And yes a timely intervention by Prof Winston that freezing eggs and sperm is not very effective!

Just a pity they are both white middle (late) age men, being interviewed by another one. Not exactly going to appeal to the young activists we need to get active in social media to counter what teenagers are being bombarded with.

But it is a good start.

Although, it was interesting that they all assumed that the transwomen in question are gay.

Is that what they assume about jazz Jennings? That anal sex will be her thing, because she has prostate?

nauticant

That Reddit thread was indeed harrowing.

Thanks Nauticant. That’s what I was looking for!

twitter.com/mermans_gender?lang=en For a bit of light relief, I have been reading this twitter feed. You will recognise the style ....

people.com/tv/jazz-jennings-transgender-bottom-surgery-complications/amp/

Here's the source of that snippet on twitter:

www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/79i5q5/i_have_no_clue_what_to_do_daughter_cant_get_the/?sort=old

It is a difficult read and full of harrowing details. However, if you can stomach reading it, you will see that things might be more complicated than "puberty blockers means no sex reassignment surgery".

My main take away is that a variety of non-hormonal and non-surgical therapies must be available to give trans kids the option not to go down the drugs or the drugs and SRS routes.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09bxk94

Link to the programme. Piece starts an hour and 35 minutes from the start

Will see if I can find the Jazz clip too

Thank you for writing it out, Iris. I no longer listen to Today (although I magically managed to catch their last half hour broadcast on the Gender free future on a brief, random visit!)

Hopefully having Robert Winston on will wake a few people up. He has done those programmes on children growing up and will carry weight with parents of teens these days as their children will be at that age. It also opens the way for proper debate without the #nodebate rubbish.

I hope CIN put their brains on and stop funding mermaids. You would think they would have learned something with saville and kids company and use their brains a bit

I agree that in a few years' time there'll be a slew of lawsuits against the NHS and private doctors, and everyone will go: "How did we allow this to happen"?

It's so infuriating. It's like people who sort of knew about Jimmy Savile and yet didn't know at the same time.

Gaspode, that is just heart breaking. The fact that this poor young person will go through life sterile and never enjoying a full loving relationship with another person as a result of a choice made in childhood is awful.

I’m interested in where the figure of one in 20,000 came from. Is that just the figure for children seeking treatment, because it feels to me that the figure is much higher than that right now.

I have two trans children in my wider circle, one presenting from very young and the other ‘coming out’ in their teens. I don’t know 40,000 children and I live in a very average place.

I know the plural of anecdote isn’t data, but most people I know either know or know of a trans child or teen in their community. The phenomenon of teenage girls claiming to be boys is well known enough for it to have been mentioned in last years Outnumbered Christmas special, and mentioned in such a way that it assumed a good portion of the audience would recognise it as a current teen trend.

JigglyTuff

So the whole point of creating a neo vagina from his torso is for aesthetics? He can’t have an orgasm from something created out of his torso.

Dear god.

Am I the only one who can’t help feeling that this is going to be explode in a heartbreaking, bloody mess very soon.

This kid and his entire family rely on the income that is generated from his condition.

He can’t just opt out.

And he is the poster child for everything trans. The advert. The best marketing tool they have.

The more I read about this kid, the more disgusted I am by these hateful people who promote child abuse.

A video of Jazz Jennings is doing the rounds of Twitter which is pretty much the same. The surgeon is talking about taking skin from Jazz’s torso to construct the new vagina and his face is heartbreaking

gaspode thats awful. Poor child :(

Gasp

Heartbreaking.

If you deliberately give a child drugs to stop their genitals developing, why is there such a surprise when it turns out there’s not enough material to create the facsimile of a vagina?

But, in a way, far worse than that, is the lack of sexual function.

It’s like cutting off a child’s leg and then being surprised that they can’t walk.

It’s that stupid.

Iris65

Thanks for writing all that out.

One day (I hope) some doctors and therapists are going to be facing malpractice lawsuits/being struck off. Don't read the text on attached image if you are squeamish (just saw it on Twitter). This makes me so angry.

At the risk of derailing....

I once went to a talk delivered by LRW when I was in my mid 30s single and childless.

He showed a slide with the fertility drop during a woman’s 30s and pulled no punches about why you can’t delay motherhood. I left very upset. (I went on to have kids by IVF in my early 40s)

Having heard him talk. I can imagine that he will show little tolerance for any intervention that reduces fertility.