R4 Today programme have an item on later about children and gender dysphoria.

Because it supports the narrative that they ‘always knew’.

Yep, along with all sorts of historical and and cultural appropriation to show that trans people have existed forever.

ArcheryAnnie

Exactly. Detransistors get absolutely vilified online. Torn to shreds. Because it undermines the entire ‘innate’ premise.

I feel, in Jazz’s case, that he doesn’t even know if he’s trans or not. It’s just him.

I’ve seen various remarks by his mother where she admits that he doesn’t remember what he said as a child and she has to ‘gently’ remind him.

If someone was truly trans or crippled by gender dysphoria, they wouldn’t need ‘reminding’. Every minute of every day their transition would feel right, confirming, authentic.

I strongly suspect that Jazz does feel absolutely distressed by what has happened to him. But hasn’t got the tools to analyse whether it’s because a big mistake has been made, or whether that’s just the natural state of a trans-girl, due to everyone else’s transphobia and the requirement that this journey is always ‘incredibly difficult’.

The manipulation and gaslighting of the ideology is watertight.

Absolutely any negativity is explained away. And it’s always either other peoples attitude, or the fact that being trans is so hard.

Any and all objection can be covered.

The fact that transitioning absolutely does not make anyone happier is always accounted for in a way that shores up the ideology.

Cross posted with Datun!

Ineedacupoftea - I honestly think it’s about validation. The more young people they can trans, the more they can try and gaslight people that the ‘born in the wrong body’ narrative is true. I have heard men who transitioned in their 40s say that they have always been women. They are revisiting their own past and inventing their back story in which they always felt like a woman but were unable to come out because of transphobia.

The fact that there are virtually no middle aged women coming out as men while there are huge numbers of teenage girls seems to pass most people by.

This kid and his entire family rely on the income that is generated from his condition. He can’t just opt out. And he is the poster child for everything trans. The advert. The best marketing tool they have.

This from Datun on the first page is what I always think when I see trans-identified children trotted out in public - not just poor Jazz Jennings (not to metion Jazz' sister, set up already to be Jazz' surrogate womb), but also Leo from CBBC, and that kid on the front of the National Geographic, all of them. They've had so much invested in their trans identity by their parents, so much "you are so brave!!!", what are the chances any of them could ever turn around and say, you know what, Mum and Dad, I'm not trans after all? Their world would fall apart, the "community" would abandon them or tear them apart (as they do to other desisters), and they would get shit from their parents for the rest of their lives. They are trapped, the poor little buggers.

but what I find chilling is that a large number of later in life trans (who went through puberty) seem to be pushing this agenda - why are they?

Because it supports the narrative that they ‘always knew’.

The premise has to be that they are born this way. Therefore it’s innate. They can’t possibly say that as I hit puberty I developed a sexual fetish.

Many homosexual transsexuals did always feel effeminate. But yet again, the AGP individuals are hijacking that for their own agenda.

Sexual fetishes do not begin at 18 months, two years, four years old. But it’s necessary to push the born this way narrative, borrowed from true transsexuals, in order to legitimise their status as transgender.

Once you separate transexuals who have gender dysphoria from autogynephilic men with a fetish, it becomes clearer.

To put it another way: older pervy men want to gaslight children over their sexual development.

That doesn't sound like the cutting edge of progressive thought to me, it sounds like other things that have been going on for a long time.

Datun good example and that's no doubt an element but what I find chilling is that a large number of later in life trans (who went through puberty) seem to be pushing this agenda - why are they? They can't possibly know all the medical consequences. Thank goodness that respected scientists like Prof Winston are speaking up. It can't be comfortable to do so.

I can't tell you how happy I am that Lord Winston has spoken out about this. He's very well respected and liked by the public and doctors so this could really help stem the tide of young people being put onto damaging drugs. And the fact he's in the House of Lords means he can influence policitians too. This is a big step forward and actually makes me more comfortable airing my misgivings (as a HCP) in a professional sense. After all the GMC would have a hard time criticising a Professor who's a world expert in fertility, so if other HCPs repeat what he says then there is surely no case to answer

I suspect it’s like your mum telling you it’s not a good idea to get a tattoo of a spiders web across your face, but you do it anyway.

Then you can’t get a job.

So you have to go around telling everyone how right you are about your spiders web, despite it impacting on your life. Because what else can you do?

The best thing to do is to encourage everyone else to get a spiders web, right?

Those TRA comments about Prof Winston are unbelievable!

How can anyone possibly listen to a renowned expert in fertility and reproductive surgery talk of his first-hand experience that 'what I have been seeing in a fertility clinic, are the long-term results, of often very unhappy people who now feel quite badly damaged' and decide that 'Robert Winston is in no f way qualified to talk about trans people, he is a fertility doctor.’!!

Yes, that's the point! An expert fertility doctor who is dealing directly with the aftermath of trans surgery and cross-sex hormones, and who has seen the outcome years down the line on his own examination table!

But no. To the TRAs, Prof Winston is 'a cunt' talking 'bullshit'.

They don't even want to acknowledge that there could be the teeniest, tiniest problem a few years down the line, do they? They don't want this information to get out. Why not?

i am not being flippant but it must be so confusing for children being told all this mis-information.

some will feel suicidal, no doubt. if you are told you dont meet the kardashian ideal of femininity then of course you are not female.

and when you find out (possibly in a biology lesson?) that this is all nonsense then you would be equally depressed.

the information is the perfect example of fake news.

How atypical and surprising. A transwoman using cunt as an insult. twitter.com/BeffernieBlack/status/925744722806796289

But isn't that sort of insult banned from Twitter?

A Twitter satirist was banned for calling Gary Lineker a 'virtue-signalling cunt'.

thefenlandconversation.wordpress.com/2017/07/20/mentioning-gary-linekar-the-virtue-signalling-cunt-gets-you-banned-on-twitter/

Do the same rules apply if you are a 'Trans comedian'? Do you get carte blanche to refer to 77 year old doctors as 'cunts' for daring to state that cosmetic surgery operations have complications? Do you get to keep your Twitter account and your 'verified' status? Or are some people more equal than others?

The suicide aspect is horrendous.

I was reading a thread where a mother was talking about her daughter. The daughter was constantly encouraged to transition online. She was depressed and isolated and was told that transitioning was the only answer.

After transitioning, she got steadily worse. She was still isolated and in a great deal of distress.

She was told by TRAs well of course you’re depressed. Everyone hates you now, because you’re trans, dur.

we're not discussing why so many kids feel depressed and suicidal

That's because TRAs convince people that young people are suicidal because people are being transphobic towards them.

One is not allowed to consider that perhaps the depression and suicidal thoughts are symptoms of mental illness which also leads to the belief they are transgender.

Jiggly you nailed it. While we're all off discussing trans issues we're not discussing why so many kids feel depressed and suicidal.

Thoughts of suicide are very high among teenagers. Particularly girls. And there needs to be a lot of unpicking about whether the depression and anxiety causes thoughts of transgenderism rather than the other way around. In earlier decades, girls became anorexia. Nowadays, they want to chop their breasts off. Anorexia is reversible but testosterone isn't.

The older AGPs don't care about the young people mutilating themselves and destroying their fertility. They are pure cannon fodder to prop up their own self-serving narrative. It's absolutely evil.

hipsterfun

How much better qualifications do they want?

A GRC, probably.

Flippant though that might sound, it absolutely nails it. You are profoundly right.

You’re not allowed to discuss trans matters unless you are trans. But you can represent women if you are a man. Breathtaking arrogance.

I really think that reddit thread should be required reading for parents of any child thinking about taking puberty blocking drugs (and the child too). The threat of suicide makes many parents want to do this but the hopeless situation that they end up in surely is going to make them more suicidal not less?

How much better qualifications do they want?

A GRC, probably.

I can’t believe the Daily Mail reported a transactivist saying that Robert Winston was unqualified and a ‘terrible cunt’.

That will get every single Daily Mail reader rushing to their silver framed photo of Winston in protective outrage.

What idiots trans transactivists are. I suspect they will start calling him old, outdated, underinformed and on the wrong side of history soon.

I hope they do. We need more people like Winston to talk about this.

Whilst this is being played out online, people are having to deal with pseudoscience, zealotry, narcissistic rage and the denial of biology and science.

All the ridiculous arguments about what constitutes biological sex, why we categorise based on sex and not hair colour, and why we’re not clown fish.

These arguments really need to be had in front of an audience of millions. Transactivism would disappear overnight.

Of course, most of the TRAs are later transitioning MtF, who quite possibly have children already, or at least had the opportunity to consider it as mature adults before transition (if they have undertaken medical/surgical transition at all). The fertility implications of the puberty blocker to cross sex hormone trajectory, or hormones purchased on the interest, are of no consequence to them.

The comments are encouraging though. I particularly enjoyed:

"Renowned scientist is criticised by people who are not scientists for stating a scientifically and empirically provable fact. Magical."

Can't believe the TRA response is that Robert Winston is not qualified to talk about it. He treats adults with fertility problems from cross sex hormones. He is a leading expert in fertility so probably understands how hormones work better than 99.9% of people. How much better qualifications do they want?

Good for Robert Winston speaking up about this issue with facts.