Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

R4 Today programme have an item on later about children and gender dysphoria.

160 replies

Iris65 · 01/11/2017 07:00

Looking forward to hearing this.

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Iris65 · 06/11/2017 03:51

Thanks for sharing the article pisacake. Prof Winston could be the beginning of a turning of the tide of how trans is approached, especially in children.

OP posts:
Datun · 05/11/2017 01:46

Interesting. And it looks like they might be studying the causes gender dysphoria in a more detailed way.

What worries me is that this will then be applied to autogynephiles.

To me, the most important thing is to start making a distinction.

I’m wondering if the backlash against Winston might give him an inkling of why women have a problem with this. And why finding a cause for gender dysphoria needs to proceed with a great deal of care to exclude people who don’t have it, but pretend they do.

pisacake · 05/11/2017 01:38

There is a story in the MoS that the NHS wants to appoint a 'transgender champion' in hundreds of doctors' surgeries.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5050725/GPs-transgender-champions-1m-proposal.html

Prof Winston has a piece within it, where he demonstrates that he does know what he is talking about, unlike the transfascists:

"Before any medical treatment, a diagnosis should be made and the underlying cause of symptoms understood.

If not, mistakes and complications occur. Patients are particularly in danger when any treatment is complex, and this is highly relevant to gender dysphoria.

This rare condition results in some people feeling extremely unhappy about their gender and wanting to change it.

It is good that our society has become increasingly sympathetic and less judgmental about such requests.

But we are embarking on complex and, mostly, irreversible treatments involving young patients.

And we have little idea of the underlying mechanisms causing dysphoria. If we are to avoid doing harm, much more research is urgently needed.

Some people who undergo gender change may become deeply unhappy later in life. I have experienced this in my own infertility clinic.

Another problem is the risk of the hormone treatment given to these young people, often when they are under the legal age of consent. Moreover, serious complications may occur following reassignment surgery.

One recent international study, among several others, reports that after reconstructive surgery to the vagina or breasts, the overall complication rate may be as high as 40 per cent and further operations are needed to put things right.

The fashioning or reconstruction of male genitalia is even more fraught.

I have been virulently criticised by some of those who have undergone this treatment successfully.

It is disturbing to be called bigoted and homophobic. Yet I was the first UK doctor to offer free IVF to lesbian women (in spite of massive protests and nasty publicity), and I tried to treat several patients for infertility long after their transgender procedure.

One tweet suggested I was quoting only international figures for surgical complications but not NHS ones.

As it happens, the greatest experience in surgical gender reassignment is not in Britain.

This is why, some years ago, I visited the famous Cleveland clinic in America, and Professor Shan Ratnam in Singapore, to learn how they did their expert surgery – which they admitted was not always successful.

Some research indicates possible reasons for gender dysphoria. At the Genesis Research Trust at Imperial College, we have funded studies of hormonal and chemical influences before birth.

Some show long-term effects of hormonal treatment on children later in life. I am also involved in the GUSTO study in Singapore, which reveals that foetuses exposed to certain hormones may have physical changes in their brains by the age of four. And they have different cognitive function – they actually think differently.

This could be relevant because certain mammals which have large litters tend to have equal numbers of males and females in the womb.

One extensively studied rodent usually gives birth to 12 babies, but occasionally, there may an unequal proportion of males and females. If, for example, there are nine males but only three females, the females commonly have altered fertility and can show male patterns of behaviour.

They are also likely to be more aggressive. And most interesting, this trait is passed to their children when they conceive.

Could this happen in humans? We do not know, but it is clear that unusual exposure to various hormones in pregnancy is not so uncommon and may risk ill-health.

We also know from IVF procedures and ultrasound scanning soon after conception that some human pregnancies start as twins, but one embryo does not develop and disappears.

So-called ‘lost twin syndrome’ could be important. If this failing embryo is of the opposite sex and, like the experimental rodent produces the ‘wrong’ hormones in early pregnancy, it may produce similar effects.

Many people are happy and grateful for gender reassignment. But there’s a problem.

We need to choose when we implement this treatment. Should we treat young children, perhaps by the age of nine before the onset of puberty, or adolescents who are increasingly unhappy about their gender?

A nine-year-old who is too young to think in an adult way is at risk. Committing them to hormone therapy which will delay puberty may have undesirable and irreversible long-term effects.

But waiting until adolescence may be a bigger problem.

Teenagers have an immature brain which may not assess risk properly. They are on a rollercoaster of constantly changing thoughts and feelings.

Until we understand the underlying reason for gender dysphoria more clearly, we must be extremely cautious."

pisacake · 04/11/2017 23:33

it's transphobic to investigate complications with trans procedures/medication. And anyone discussing it is a secret troll.

Datun · 04/11/2017 21:27

TammyswansonTwo

I’m so sorry to hear that. And I know you’re not alone. There are very many stories about the side effects of Lupron.

It’s quite disgusting that this is not being investigated.

TammyswansonTwo · 04/11/2017 21:20

datun that's exactly what they've done.

When I was on this drug for medical reasons, in my mid 20s, my libido literally turned off like a switch. I was on it for 2 years, it stayed gone for six years until one day it literally switched back on and off a few times randomly, then back on properly. Years later and pregnancy had the same effect as a result. No docyors were interested in this result of course.

I also believe it has caused a condition called central hypothyroidism which is rare and hard to diagnose and I've been battling for the last 8 years to have this taken seriously (still no joy).

Beingrippedoff · 04/11/2017 20:55

That article about the conference linked above is unbelievable. If your daughter doesn't like wearing a dress she's a boy. If your son doesn't shout and play with trucks he's a girl. Seriously how the fuck can anyone take this seriously and why are professionals fueling this by prescribing hormones to these kids.

Datun · 04/11/2017 18:48

TammyswansonTwo

Flowers

Thanks for speaking out.

TammyswansonTwo · 04/11/2017 15:26

Giving Lupron to a developing child is just horrific. If any of their parents had ever been on it themselves they'd never allow it. That drug destroyed my body and mind for years on end, and I still struggle a decade on. It's unimaginable.

Stopmakingsense · 04/11/2017 14:50

Hopefully to remain in the "just because you can, doesn't mean you should" category. I did get the impression that no one quoted in the article was that keen, despite helpful illustration!

Igneococcus · 04/11/2017 13:34

I would quite like to know what Prof Winston thinks about this
womb transplants

Stopmakingsense · 04/11/2017 07:27

Interesting articles. Way back in 2010, when scientific study meant something!!!

In the meantime, we have US gender "specialists" suggesting that Girl toddlers are taking hair slides out know they are really boys, and that boys in babygros unsnap the poppers to make them into skirts because they know they are actually girls. I am not kidding.

4thwavenow.com/2016/09/29/gender-affirmative-therapist-baby-who-hates-barrettes-trans-boy-questioning-sterilization-of-11-year-olds-same-as-denying-cancer-treatment/

QuentinSummers · 03/11/2017 21:29

And this article is what I thought the understanding of gender was. Young children might think they are a girl or a boy but they also think they could change in the future, they have no concept of permanence.
www.iflscience.com/brain/when-do-children-develop-their-gender-identity/

QuentinSummers · 03/11/2017 21:25

This is an interesting research article about gender development in children
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747736/

nauticant · 03/11/2017 21:10

Are they now meant to think that they are asexual and can look forward to a happy and fulfilled life, but without sex.

There's no need to worry Hopfunko. Apparently, asexuality includes people who have sexual desire, who choose to have sex to fulfill that sexual desire, but are not sexually attracted to anyone in particular. Rather, their style is to just grab whoever is convenient to scratch that itch. Apparently, one acknowledged form of asexuality is promiscuity.

In summary, asexuality includes people who are promiscuous and people who as children were permanently chemically castrated so they would never feel desire.

Maybe asexuality has always meant this stuff. Maybe we've always been at war with Eastasia.

Bucketsandspoons · 03/11/2017 20:39

Maybe this is now being put forward as an option so that it seems more normal to those who transition and have surgery that leaves them with no sexual function.

A thread yesterday linked a video by Jazz Jennings who has this issue and a comment said 'remember there's nothing wrong, it's just another identity!'

It's not a desirable identity and many of the commenters avidly supporting this also mentioned living all the time with being suicidal. This is going to be seen in 100 years time as the Western World's revisiting of the Salem Witch Trials. Supposedly normal, sensible professionals and leaders being completely sucked in by hysteria, led by vulnerable teenagers and their hangers on, hanging and destroying anyone who dared name the madness or was accused by the hysterics as being an enemy, and massive social contagion. A period of utter, terrifying, illogical madness.

norahnamechange · 03/11/2017 20:05

Primaryteach87
One of the problems is that the DfE have directed schools straight to transgender activist organisations for information, training etc. If you look at the DfE equality guidance for schools it links schools to an information page for GIRES that invites schools to contact them directly. And thus the gaslighting begins as the GIRES training packs are littered with fake suicide statistics, supposed 'facts' that children should begin puberty halting drugs BEFORE puberty starts "early intervention is the key", suggestions that GP's should be ignored if they suggest someone waits and that if someone stops taking puberty blockers, puberty will just resume.
There's also some very undermining stuff about parents and families - roleplays stating that parents are wrong if they 'misgender' their child and dismissing their support for over 16s. IAll aimed at those working with children - it is truly awful when you unpick what they're saying but the DfE have been cheerfully sending schools their way without a hesitation.

Hopfunko · 03/11/2017 20:03

Back to the BBC, there was a strange article on their website a couple of weeks ago about people who are asexual. It included a quotation by a 16 year old teenager who said they are asexual. Many 16 year olds do not yet have strong sexual feelings, particularly if they are late going through puberty. Are they now meant to think that they are asexual and can look forward to a happy and fulfilled life, but without sex.

Maybe this is now being put forward as an option so that it seems more normal to those who transition and have surgery that leaves them with no sexual function.

Primaryteach87 · 03/11/2017 19:48

I’m a pro-gay marriage liberal (just stating since some people assume this is all pearl clutching) but gender ‘treatment’ for children utterly terrifies me. As a teacher I saw at least 50% of reception teacher verbally or through dressing up explore the idea of being the opposite gender. I honestly think it’s a normal stage.
Add to that, that 80% of young people presenting to gender clinics go on to transition normally through the original sex puberty.

I’m not at all saying there aren’t a small handful of children with issues that will pervade to adulthood. But my first, second and third step would be to a) say it’s normal and b) get therapy c) question if I have given any wrong messages about gender stereotypes.

nauticant · 03/11/2017 19:46

You will be saddened to hear that you have understood correctly Ollycat.

As if the situation wasn't already bad enough, any attempt to research into links between trans and ASD or mental illness would be shut down like nobody's business. Doing research into that in the present climate is a potential career destroyer.

Ollycat · 03/11/2017 19:37

Ok so it’s ok for these transwomen to advocate and encourage actual violence (as in real proper violence) against women and society supports these people but if someone mentions Biology or misgenders someone then this is classified as violence and the whole world is in uproar. And we’re passing laws to support this.

So basically the plan is to erase women? Not just shut us up but to actually get rid of us? Or am I over reacting???

(I am v concerned about the over representation of teens with ASD identifying as trans)

Datun · 03/11/2017 19:30

Ollycat

Yes those views are widespread. This is what happens when you allow fetishist cross dressers, who hold misogynistic views, to come under the umbrella of transgender.

And yes, autism is overly represented in the trans-community.

Ollycat · 03/11/2017 19:28

I was reading some comments on LRW Twitter and think I must have entered some parallel universe with Transwomen boasting about their girl cocks and advocating violence against TERFs - these people really hate women!!! They don’t want to be women they want to erase us!!(sorry overuse of !!) - is this really tge Brave New World we like live in? Are these views widespread? Also as an aside has there been any research into any links between teens with ASD identifying as Trans?

Datun · 03/11/2017 10:00

He’s dodging both the standard misogyny, and also the narcissistic rage that women provoke, simply by being the thing that AGPs desperately want to be but know they never can.

Very insightful. And I hate to say, but this is why we do need men to speak out.

hipsterfun · 03/11/2017 09:54

He’s dodging both the standard misogyny, and also the narcissistic rage that women provoke, simply by being the thing that AGPs desperately want to be but know they never can.

Swipe left for the next trending thread