anyone else been ditched by friends for having Gender critical views?

Datun would you mind posting the comment, please? i have looked at the comments section but it defeated me - it;s all nested!

If you’ve got a spare few minutes, this is worth it. I’ll post the link, but the item is a couple of items down. I’ll put a photo to show what to click on. It’s the comments that are gold.

m.facebook.com/femme4memes/?locale2=en_GB#!/femme4memes/?locale2=en_GB

There’s brilliantly long comment near the end that absolutely shreds ‘non-binaryness’

Colossal, obvs.

In my day, activism was about the bigger picture.

Their self-absorption is so collosal they can’t even see it.

“I need YOU to try harder”. Says it all really.

Now I watch that, and all my “poor loves being caught up in a horribly heteronormative and damaging/abusive” sympathies melts away faster than a snowflake in a frying pan, and I can’t help wondering if they aren’t just idiots.

I honestly think that these “non binary snowflakes of tumblr” videos should be compulsory viewing.

Until this garbage started I would have been all for saying trans ppl shouldn’t be discriminated against. I would still say that, but to be frank, if someone came to my company looking for a job, I wouldn’t employ them if they were a man who insisted he was a woman. Because I employ people to solve problems and the first step in solving problems is dealing with reality. If someone is so detached from reality they refuse to face up to what sex they are, they’re not going to be much use.

(The above is hypothetical because I don’t actually have a company or employ anyone).

Rachel Dolezal? There is no difference. None whatsoever. Unless you talk to a transactivist. And then it’s completely different. But they can’t say why.

I have not really had any discussions about any of these things with my friends.

It's a little baffling to me actually. I would also agree with your basic position OP.

This may be a really outrageous question but do you remember that woman in the states a while ago who said she was black and had the high flying role at the NAACP under false pretences? Well do all those people getting offended about the trans thing think that she has the right to proclaim this then

I'm sorry if this offends anyone I just really can't see the difference.

As everyone wants to claim it because deciding you’re oppressed seems to give you so many advantages these days.

Well, claiming you are oppressed when you aren't is what confers the advantage. Some men see claiming trans, nonbinary or genderfluid status gives them a get-out-of-jail-free card to be as vile as they like, because not only are they the Most Oppressed (without actually having the inconvenience of actual oppression), they can cast women in the role of Evil Oppressor. It's an amazing political teflon coating.

annandale

Whilst transphobia might be considered the definition of how you feel, do you think the reason you feel it is irrational?

Because from what you have said about your own gender issues, body discomfort and ambivalent attitude to sex, it sounds like a fairly rational response. Which is not the definition of a phobia.

Many women who have suffered sexual trauma do not, on any level, want to be around a strange man. And I should imagine it’s worse if that man is insisting he is a woman. The gaslighting aspect is horrendous.

Lancelottie

Yes, that doesn’t surprise me at all. How one can magically change one’s sexual orientation by changing gender.

And yes, of the three, Charlie sounds the worst off to me too! But not of course if you add up his oppression points, as he has managed to drop being homosexual. On the other hand, he has become trans. So it probably evens out. Except being trans is a triple word score and beats everything.

It’s basically shooting the moon.

'Oppression privilege' reminds me, Datun, of a conversation I had with DS about Prejudice Top Trumps at school and who the teacher should have made most allowances for during an argument:
'Well, Callum is autistic and Sam is black, but Charlie is trans and it was him they were insulting about his girlfriend.'

At this point, I unwisely said 'Oh, Charlie [who I know to be female] wins for being mixed-race, trans and gay then', and DS told me sternly that, no, it was a straight relationship because Charlie Is A Boy now.

Charlie, incidentally, is a child of very religious parents who has a history of self-harm.

No I really am transphobic in a bad way. I dont want to be around trans people (at least the ones ive met). I think this is wrong and to be combated. I had some counselling about it which helped at least name the problem -part of it is that I am very conflicted about my own female body. I hate menstruating and birth and breastfeeding while also being mildly proud of doing all of them along with everything else. I'm useless at fashion and makeup and I rarely get sexual attention (I rarely want it though, I'm fairly screwed up about sexytime too). In my family women do all the work and I do mean all of it. I want to tell men who want to be women to fuck off work harder and get over themselves. The ones I've met are mostly in male dominated professions with commensurate pay, and they relate to me like men do. Another came to a female dominated event and seemd unable to join in, but wouldnt ask for help or respond to overtures. He probably tjinks women are naturally better at talking and relationships without any idea of the amount of practice socialisation and WORK relationships take. I couldn't do it any more.

I separately also think that a person born into one biological category can't move into another and all the other theoretical stuff but my phobia of being around trans people is a genuine problem that I have to work out myself.

(Signed-up member of the 'quite-odd' team for many reasons, by the way)

I think the majority of people where I live (NW) would be confused at the idea that a man could actually become a woman. Not because they are well-informed or bothered by the feminist angle. But because transgenderism is still a pretty out-there concept to them, and not something they will have come across in real life.

And I think, further, that feminism and transgenderism are equally seen by a lot of people as 'out-there concepts involving over-thinking middle-class types with too much time on their hands'. There seems to be an attitude that this is all in-fighting amongst the already quite odd, and needn't bother normal people.

You can see it if you read the comments under some of those Twitter feeds - real confusion over whether, say, letting your child do both dance and football is a feminist or transactivist position.

I don't know that "trans" means. Many of the trans allies don't seem to know either.

That’s because it doesn’t actually mean anything, or rather it means too much.

You can fulfil all the criteria of being transgender, but not actually be trans. Because the key word is what you identify as, not what you are.

So you can be a man, with a penis, who is AGP, but not be transgender purely by dint of the fact that you don’t identify as one. Like Grayson Perry.

Or you could be non-binary. As long as you identifiy as being non binary. Which means you can also identify as trans.

Since gender is constructed by society, you can manipulate it in any way you like.

It’s completely meaningless. And it’s becoming more and more evident. As everyone wants to claim it because deciding you’re oppressed seems to give you so many advantages these days.

Is that oppression privilege?

In common with thinking in the no-platform, #nodebate movements, trans as used by TRAs and trans allies largely seem to mean "people who we consider to have virtue".

One thing they all seem to learn: all definitions must be circular.

I can't imagine this happening to me tbh. I think the majority of people where I live (NW) would be at the idea that a man could actually become a woman. Not because they are well-informed or bothered by the feminist angle. But because transgenderism is still a pretty out-there concept to them, and not something they will have come across in real life.

However, although that isn't in itself at odds with my gender-critical opinions, the ignorance is not really a good thing! Lots of them would probably also be happy to stick with traditional gender steteotypes about lots of things too. My friend didn't want her dd to take up football at school because it's for boys.

By any of the current definitions, I'm nonbinary trans - though the language I would use to describe that is very different, and since I think gender theory is shit that's out anyway. I'm certainly a lot more trans than some twentysomething dickhead called Jason who thinks wearing a bit of eyeliner makes him oppressed.

Yes, nauticant, I have often thought the same thing. What exactly is trans? I would certainly meet any criteria of transphobic, not believing that trans women are women. The bar for transphobia is so very low. I have started using correct biological pronouns for clarity.

My slight problem is that I'm GC, fine, but also am transphobic

I hear what you're saying and sometimes feel I might be a bucket of seething hatred* but then I realise that I'm simply phobic of harmful speech and harmful actions. (Where harm has to actually mean something, regretted teenage sterilisation trumps hurt feelings for example.)

I don't know that "trans" means. Many of the trans allies don't seem to know either. Not really. TRAs don't care what it means, they're willing for it to mean anything in order to win whatever social media battle they're currently fighting. The definition of what is included, or excluded, or meant, can change completely in the same paragraph and sometimes in the same sentence.

• For any mischief makers about, bucket of seething hatred is a deliberately ironic comment.

I am 45. I am proud to say I have peaked a few people who have listened to me because I am a lesbian. The feeling of peaking people is worth the social discomfort.

Archery Females as just a collection of body parts for males to plunder at will. Women owning their own bodies cast as an "oppressive" act.

YY, you put it into words so well!

I've actually been told I should 'donate my womb to a trans woman' because its oppressive i don't use it for what its intended. I've been told I should donate my eggs for trans people.

Holy shit, JetCityWoman, that's horrendous, I am so sorry.

It's so dystopian. Females as just a collection of body parts for males to plunder at will. Women owning their own bodies cast as an "oppressive" act. Fucking hell.