Patriarchy

would you say that courts should award men the right to be primary care giver of children 50% of the time?

When men are the primary carers of the children, they are the ones who are awarded primary custody of the children.

Where both parents work, and then split, quite often (more often than not), men don't want 50/50 care of their children because children are a hindrance to their work as working around children is very difficult, and childcare is expensive. So they leave that burden to their ex wife.

Patriarchy again.

silverviking that's all well and good as long as both parties are happy in the unit and see it through. If one part of the unit earns more while the other part raises the kids and does lesser paid work in addition to this and the high earner leaves after 20 years because they're not that into the unit anymore, the lowered earner is financially screwed while the higher earner has their career and their grown up children and can't really see a problem because they all made their own choices and contributed to the unit.

In this scenario, the vulnerable person is usually female.

Feminism isn't just about choices. That's shopping. Feminism is about context, challenging existing systems and ways of thinking and questioning why we make the choices we make even when they are clearly not in our own best interests.

Sorry if this comes across as a bit angry but I used to think exactly what you think and it's massively over simplistic and encourages women to have a lot of trust...

Why would anyone need a head of household?

Quite, this seems a bizarre notion to me. I've never heard of a household having a "head"; I'm sure it would have been alien even to my parents as children given my grandparents certainly don't have one or the other as a "head".

"As for the courts women do get a better deal when it comes to custody. The majority of the time they are given primary care giver role, is this something you feel women should give up so that we can be more equal?"

But not because they are women- because they are usually the primary care giver in the first place. Some women actively choose this, but for most it is not a free choice. And it is very rarely a choice a man can make. Back to the patriarchy!

Alternativetentacle
Don't feel I am brainwashed, I think some gendered differences are there because, dare I say it, perhaps there are differences between the sexes and this is reflected in the choices they make.
I'm not saying that I don't support women who want to pursue a career, fine but don't tell me I'm a brainwashed victim if I want to take a career break to spend time with my family. It's unsupportive to assume all women have same aspirations and goals.
For the poster who mentioned the nuclear family... do feminists feel this needs to go? What is the alternative that's going to improve our lives?
As for the courts women do get a better deal when it comes to custody. The majority of the time they are given primary care giver role, is this something you feel women should give up so that we can be more equal?

Missymoo, you speak a so much sense.

Equality is very complex, especially in the workplace.
You are so right in what you say about whether the boardroom is the ultimate success .... and i agree it is not. In every company i have worked in, people get to the boardroom if work is their primary focus in life - available and working every day, evening and weekend. Many people will never want this as they value other things .... such as family time, hobbies etc. And you also recognise many people will not have the skills or mindset to do these boardroom roles. Bear in mind when i say " people" i am including women and men.

A lot of partnerships work as a unit. The division of labour allowing the "unit" to achieve more than the sum of the individuals - so one person may prefer to put more time bringing up the family and the other put more time into earning. The success is on whether both partners agree, get individual fulfillment and feel the partnership is a success. It is not up to anyone ... a feminist or a patriarchist, to say what every partnership should do and to try and define success.

Success and equality and feminism for me is the freedom to be able to make the choices that are right for you and your partnership, that do not negatively impact others.

"Re jellyfish- 50% of parents are male? I am interested to know ppls opinions on- if this is the case, and we don't acknowldge women's preference to spend time with their child and take time out from work, would you say that courts should award men the right to be primary care giver of children 50% of the time? So that women will have to automatically give 50% custody to male counterparts?"

Isn't the presumption now that it should be 50:50 if possible? The problem is that it's usually not possible for working parents. Oops, patriarchy again....

Why would anyone need a head of household?

Alternaticetentacle- I don't know many women who want these jobs, I don't see the same media focus on it either

Probably because you have been brainwashed into thinking this bullshit, so don't focus on discussing it. You are an instrument of the patriarchy and you have no idea/don't even care.

Re jellyfish- 50% of parents are male?

Yes, females can't make babies alone.

The courts do recognise the father as 50% carer. They award custody to women because they demonstrate that they are primary care-givers. It's a common myth that mothers get an easier ride in the family courts. All research actually suggests that the opposite is true. It's a perfect example of ideology rather than fact shaping people's ideas about reality.

missymoo we're not brainwashed. We just all believe in the version of reality we are born into. The fact that you believe women are more innately caring despite the fact that there is very little scientific evidence to support your claim, suggests that you are just subscribing to the dominant beliefs of the society you are in. We all do this, it's how we create culture and meaning.

It is ok to challenge and question though. it's scary to think you might be buying into beliefs that disadvantage you because of your gender, it's even scarier to accept that there may be endemic injustices that you just have to suck up to a certain degree. We all want to be masters (or mistresses) of our own destiny. It's not pleasant to face the idea that we may not be as in control as we'd like to be.

Some interesting points, I'm going out in a moment so will respond a bit later.
Bertrandrussel- your right there are a lot of points and I do see where your coming from. I'm not saying there aren't issues that need addressing but I just don't think the problem is with patriarchy.
Re jellyfish- 50% of parents are male? I am interested to know ppls opinions on- if this is the case, and we don't acknowldge women's preference to spend time with their child and take time out from work, would you say that courts should award men the right to be primary care giver of children 50% of the time? So that women will have to automatically give 50% custody to male counterparts?
I think we need to acknowldge women may have sometimes different priorities if we are to address women's issues.
Someone mentioned single parents and child care as an example i agree that there needs to be more solutions to this- flexible working, part time working, adequate maternity leave etc. i feel that this is lost sight of and sometimes think equality feminism which just aims to put us on equal footing to men as a mere statistic isn't helpful. For example I heard a feminist saying that maternity leave is too long, that it disadvantages us in the workplace... well yes it may do, but I think its regressive to just assume all women want to jump back into work and should be denied looking after our children if we so choose. This is not looking after the interests of women.

An anecdote for you.

I was talking this week to a group of twenty-somethings in my old job -- all graduates, all in the same role.

One (male) had just come back from a couple of weeks' paternity leave and was saying what a wrench it was to leave his new baby, and that he'd asked HR about parental leave and been strongly discouraged 'because, really, we intend that for the mothers'.

One of the others (female) had just been told (oh so jokingly) by their joint boss, 'Don't you dare go and have a baby while we're so busy.'

Twenty years previously, the same company refused to have a workplace nursery because 'employees' wives might want to use it too', obviously forgetting that the male employees were related to their offspring in any way.

I won't out the company, but it obviously hasn't improved its thinking much since I left.

Many more women and girls would be alive if it wasn't for men and boys who've murdered them for being female.

When I was in school a male teacher used to be highly inappropriate towards female students- he would twang their bra straps, make comments about appearance.

This is horrendous and shows complete entitlement, seeing girls as objects for his own amusement, feeling it completely acceptable to belittle and degrade girls in this way. This attitude towards girls and women is commonplace in a society which perpetuates it through how women are presented, normalisation of street harassment and so on, though a teacher doing it is particularly disturbing.

For the poster that said why is it women that take time out and not men- because we have an innate desire to care for our offspring

I've read on other sections of this forum numerous posts from women who've been pressured into sacrificing their careers/putting them on hold when they didn't want to. I recall a post from a woman who was told she "wasn't being a proper mother" for wanting to go back to work, one who sacrificed her career even though she was the breadwinner because although she wanted to go back she thought "realistically" her husband would go on to earn more purely because men tend to, and others. Many make the choice freely (I have an aunt who did) but many are forced/pressured into it, just as many men would want to be the primary carer to their children but face barriers to doing so.

I personally have no desire to have children but have a very strong desire to excel in my future career.

Missy moo

Patriarchy does cause a lot of injustice. The belief that women are innately prepared to care for children is very problematic. I think neuroscience might be with you for the first year or so post-partum but after this it's just convention.

Women don't just put caring needs first during infancy, it's a pattern that extends throughout childhood and even into the care of elderly parents. There is absolutely no reason why this should be so gendered. There are many caring men and many smart ambitious women. In my opinion, the reason patriarchal systems continue to impede women is because they are defined as more caring and therefore more innately satisfied by 'choosing' to look after people to the detriment of their own finances and independence.

The problem is that the nuclear family is a patriarchal in structure and relies on someone (usually the woman) compromising themselves financially to hold the whole unit together.

Read some Judith Butler. It's eye opening

..respect is mutual and this is what is needed more mutual respect and less "smashing of patriarchy".

If there was mutual respect there would be no patriarchy.

because we have an innate desire to care for our offspring, all species do this, it tends to be females more so than males.

Fish, reptiles?

". It annoys me that women are told that the only reason why they would wilfully make this choice is patriarchy."
They aren't, are that? But it is certainly true that the way the working environment is organised in this country means that very often women and men don't have very much choice about how they organise their work/family balance. And that is down to the patriarchy!

I agree single parents don't get much help, but again there are females in power, why don't they do something?

Parents are equally male and female.

Runningsimple-
"Traditionally women have been very good at policing the patriarchy- hence female jurors being harsh in sexual harassment cases. It's such an entrenched mindset that women basically don't see what the problem is"- no I don't accept that women are too blind or stupid idea see this, that to me undermines women, making out were all brainwashed.

You are right that there are injustices that face women, but patriarchy is an comminly cited as the cause.

For the poster that said why is it women that take time out and not men- because we have an innate desire to care for our offspring, all species do this, it tends to be females more so than males. It annoys me that women are told that the only reason why they would wilfully make this choice is patriarchy.

About equal pay upto 30, yes because around this age women take time out to have kids, go part time etc... it's insulting to say these women don't know their own minds and are victims of a system stacked against them. These are bright capable women saying that they want to have more family time and nothing wrong with that

Exactly the same amount of men are becoming parents at the same time.

MissyMoo if everydayfeminism is the source of your understanding of feminism then I'd suggest you take a look at the rest of this board - it's widely acknowledged to be a pile of laughable twaddle and is absolutely not representative of the beliefs of the majority of feminists here.

Yes women and children have died in wars goes without saying, but many more would die or be subjected to far worse if men hadn't lost their lives

Well that makes no sense - many more would have lived if they hadn't been killed by the men on the other side (or through accidents making artillery and equipment for their own)!

And I think you'll find that 'far worse' is also suffered by those women and children anyway, again, committed by the men on the other side of said war, and then by their own side when the men who went to war came home (or by the privations caused by said war)

Sorry, you can't spin this. Civilian casualties are important - as important as combatant.

Why don't we want to be fork lift truck drivers, refuse collectors, builders

I wanted to be a builder as a teenager and was discouraged by just about everyone.