#MeToo is trans-exclusionary and for white, cis, privileged women

So chances are because you are born of the violent birth sex you are a risk to women or at least a reminder of male aggression thus not welcome?

Not every man is a risk, obviously. But women have no way of telling a predator from a non predator. You don’t come with a label.

Ok, #me too snowballed as a result of the almost 100 now stories of women being (allegedly) sexually assaulted by HW. Stories by many different women at many different points in time that all support each other in terms of the types of things he did. Some have witnesses (the police taping, Daryl Hannah had her makeup artist with her when he barged into her room, assistants have spoken out).

If It becomes law that you can just self identify as female (whilst looking exactly the same and retaining your penis) and then to misgender you is a hate crime, what's to stop someone who is being accused of sexual harassment /rape self Identifying as female then crying hate crime at all the women they've abused? Because their stories involve naming the MAN involved? Genuine question. Seems like an excellent ploy and really what do you have to lose if you don't have to actually change anything? In fact, it'd be a way to continue to exert power over your victims.

Wait a minute Dad, do YOU think you can change your biological sex?

How do you know you’re a man?
Could you please define what makes you a man that doesn’t rely on biology or gender stereotypes?

I would also like to point our that there has been an almost honour code arrangement between women and trans women for years and this pushing for self identification and gender identity trumping sex is actually harmful to transwomen as it means that women are becoming far more critical.

Got it. If you are born with a dick you have no place in women's spaces, you'll never be a woman (however much you may feel you are simply born in the wrong body)? So chances are because you are born of the violent birth sex you are a risk to women or at least a reminder of male aggression thus not welcome?

Or is there a point when you can prove your woman enough to join the club? If so what criteria do you need to be accepted?

Must admit I am glad I am not transgender. Sounds a tough world out there. Not convinced in the game of privileged top trumps that trans gender people are necessarily more privileged that the average women? But based on what's been said I sure they'll be a good argument to why they are?

By the way I'm not necessarily saying your wrong. You make sound arguments based on biological forces that despite however inconvenient in this world obsessed by identity politics. Biological factors that still affect to a certain degree many sports, employment in certain jobs as well as who can use what changing rooms. The trouble is still this is not a simple issue. So there maybe a certain amount of playing devils advocate as I test ideas and work it out.

AssignedPerfectAtBirth

Well done. It’s painful, isn’t it?

dad

You don’t have to take Paris as an example. Take any representative of transwomen. They all say the same.

Indian Willoughby the other day on TV talking about sexual harassment of women, and not getting it. Because he’s a man. There isn’t a woman alive who doesn’t get why he doesn’t get it!

98% of sexually violent crime is committed by men. 90% of violent crime is committed by men.

No, we don’t want men in our spaces. No, men aren’t women.

Transwomen commit sexual crime at exactly same rate as any other man.

85% of transwomen retain their male genitalia. A significant majority remain attracted to women.

What is it about women saying no, and defending their boundaries that you find troublesome?

Why do women have to defend the word no, suddenly?

Also piss off with the idea that being a woman is a privilege

The reason why women feel that they would be giving up something by allowing trans women into women’s spaces is because they WOULD be giving something up, something pretty fundamental and important. We’d be giving up the right to be able define biological female as a class, if biological female also includes biological males then what does it mean? We would essentially not be allowed to ever meet in a space without biological males being allowed to be present, that’s pretty fucking big.
If the class women also includes biological males then how are we supposed to accurately present the violence against biological women and if we can’t name it how are we supposed to fight it?
It’s literally the irradication of biological women as a class and you can’t see why we should just shuffle over and let them play so we don’t hurt their feelings?

And no a biological male can never become a biological female.

Yes gender does definitely 100% need to be broken down, but how exactly does the trans movement achieve this??

And actually Paris is often brought out as a spokesperson for trans people, about two weeks ago she was the trans voice on a debate about no platforming on newsnight.

BigDeskBob fair point the trouble is everyone is a individual and every dynamic is different. But that does make it hard to find a way forward to find a situation that is good and fair to everyone. So I suppose that's where comprimise comes in. It intrests me the idea that women feel they are giving something up/sacrificing if they were to be more inclusive of trans people in woman spaces. I suppose if you beleive a trans woman is not in fact a woman then that would make sense. Personally I am currently of the thinking trying to break down the barriers of gender is best. But I know from what has been said that many on here feel the protection of women on spaces (based on birth sex more than gender) are vitally important to be protected. Sort of a proliferation of sex apartite. Having said that is a genralistic veiw and many of practicalitys (as many have mentioned) are a challenge and revert back to the ideas to what extent do you support the needs of a minority against the feelings of a (possibly more privalided) majority? I'm not sure many on here would agree with you that birth sex isn't a thing.

I didn't realise Paris reflects all transwomen? I suppose then Kattie Hopkins represents all women?

Sentimentallentil

I can’t read a single thing Paris says without, yet again, being struck by the idiocy of this ideology.

Paris loves to be objectified. Paris thinks women should be objectified. Paris objectifies.

So far, so misogynistic. But to pretend that this is the way a woman thinks, or should think, is ludicrous.

To then see Paris demanding they represent the viewpoints of women, is insane.

And the icing on the cake, is Paris disagreeing with, or criticising women who don’t buy in to this rank misogyny.

I’m a bit behind but I just can’t get over how Paris Lees says in her article about loving street harassment that women who say that men shouldn’t catcall women are infantilising other women and she ‘wasn’t brought up that way’. No, no you weren’t, you were brought up as a boy.

dad

Make no mistake, you and other man are absolutely expected to start dating people with penises (should you be on the dating scene).

Laverne Cox, born a man, has stated that you need to overcome this silly insecurity and toxic masculinity.

Laverne spoke with Attitude magazine, about meeting straight men on dating apps. She claims that often times, when they find out she’s TRANS – they don’t want to date her anymore.

Here’s what she said, about those men: “They’re insecure as fuck. . . . There’s nothing wrong with [dating Trans women]. Toxic masculinity is bullshit.”

And, of course, with men transitioning younger and younger, straight men will definitely be encountering men they think are women. And very many transwomen see absolutely no reason to disclose their trans status. They get very, very angry with people who think they should.

Playboy, for instance, sees no reason why the sort of men who buy their magazine should not find their current centrefold, a man with a penis, as arousing as any woman. After all, it’s very difficult to tell. And by the time you can tell, in the bedroom, it’s all a little late. You’ve got a very aroused man on your hands who thinks you are a hateful bigot if you suddenly want to leave.

mtonews.com/mto-shocker-trans-actress-laverne-cox-says-straight-women-dont-date-t-girls-insecure-fck-suffer-toxic-masculinity-agree/

Its very easy to call for compromise and give and take when you as an individual do not have to give up anything. What compromises are MTT and men making?

And 'birth sex' isn't a thing.

Can I just ask 1 dad, if your challenge straight men on this subject. I have not met one single straight man who believes a transwomen is a woman. I am very confused as to why people start their campaign with feminists. I am quite happy for people to talk to women about this once they have convinced straight men. Happy to wait.

1DAD2KIDS

You are asking for a bit of give-and-take.

Let’s cut to the chase. Exactly how much give-and-take do you think women should provide?

Specifically.

And I don't give a fuck what colour you are. But yes, by it's very nature a campaign highlighting male violence against women is going to be cis-privileged. Well, duh.

it's selfish to want to be recognized as a woman when you are wagging your penis around in a women's changing room. HTH.

I don't think you are quite understanding, dad. Why the actual fuck should men with penises be allowed to legally call themselves women, enter women only spaces, and force women to suck it up?

Are you one of these fruits who genuinely believe in a female penis? A fully functioning, capable of rape and impregnation penis, but just because it happens to be wearing a frock, we all have to look the other way and let it be waved around in front of our daughters, and teach them that the it belongs to a woman? And that it's illegal to say it like it is? 'Yes darling. It's a man. Men are the only sex with a penis. But we have to call him a woman and allow him into our safe spaces, because otherwise we're being transphobic.'

I have trans friends. The less fucking bonkers among them enjoy a bit of sparring but readily acknowledge that it is gender they have a problem with, not sex. But do understand that it's problematic to claim to have a problem with gender, but allow it to dictate their whole fucking lives like they are living in a 1950s sitcom. Women have been totally sold down the river on this.

I am one hundred percent supportive of people's rights to wear what they want, be called what they like, and do whatever the hell they want. But when you get maternity services who decide they can no longer refer to the pregnant as a woman, refer to the person bearing the child as a mother, and men demanding that medical services that deal with female only issues are transphobic- the world has slipped off its axis.

I am kind, respectful, never misgender, and am fully understanding of the struggles that my trans friends go through. But don't try and tell me that I have to privately agree that the man with a beard and a penis is a woman, or that it's a fucking privilege to be sexually assaulted or have sexist abuse hurled at you, and be told you are the problem, not the violent, abusive, and misogynistic MEN. And I am teaching my children the same thing. Including my 15yo son whose best friend was born female but believes she wants to be man. She started transitioning at 13.

While I applaud your intention to listen, dad, I don't believe you are hearing us. If those two kids of yours are daughters, you had better bloody start.

Seeking comprimise and putting aside some personal interest for the interests of wider society. A bit of give and take.

You’re a man, right? OK. How’s about you give a small amount of your privilege before asking women to give a a huge chunk of their safety? You know, because it’s so easy to give up stuff. Let’s start with your extra money, power and then stop harassing us and we will give a little too?