Second Coren disappointment of the weekend

No one could have an issue with you being body positive, inclusive and doing strength training, circuits, weights etc. I would encourage women to be active and if that's pole dancing then great. I disagree it's a sport and I disagree that you can ignore its origins when considering if it's an activity that should be widely encouraged for women everywhere.

If only faux upper-middle class piety were an Olympic sport. an excellent comment from the Guardian comments underneath the article.
I can't stand the Corens and their little coterie.

Maybe we just quite enjoy a fun class with other women (and some men at mine!) who are body positive, inclusive and we enjoy the strength training, circuits and moves we learn there. (Personally, i don't want to be exercising in the street. Equally, i wouldn't use those outdoor gyms in parks)

Lots of us in the studio also now do weights more in the gym (including venturing into the area usually full of men) because we want to build an area ready to nail a new move.

It's a fun way to be fit. Nothing more to it than that.

I have never seen a man doing gymnastics on a lamp post in my daily life btw, so I'm not sure where all this street gym takes place?

So the only reason women won't do street gym is fear of judgement from men, whereas pole dancing is ok because it's seen as sexy by men and therefore not disapproved of? Have I understood your point correctly? I feel like I'm not understanding why you think women want to do poledancing over street gym.

@lana

In a way I agree with you. It is a problem that women don't feel they can compete as well as men in sports that you mention.

However, having said that, the Olympics were originally war games and therefore it's no surprise the sports involved suit strong male, or pre pubescent male (read women) better. Gymnastics historically were gór pre pubescent males who were light and flexible, thrown above battle walls to look at enemy front lines.

In this way, the Olympics were designed for men and the inclusion of "female" sports is a sticking plaster over what is an institution rooted in what MALE bodies can do and the cuture that puts the ability of those bodies at the pinnacle.

I, personally, would love to see a "street olympics". But, fir me at least, having A Single event in the Olympics, trying to escape the tests of "sexyness", that was built by women, for women, in a sexist world is a small, a very small win.

look at it this way....

If a woman was out in the street, using a lamp post in exactly the same way as the guys do.....what do you think the reaction would be????

Do you think it would be...."good for her, look how strong she is"
Or would it be "look at that woman, begging for attention by prancing about on a lamp post in public"????

AssassinatedBeauty
'Suck and tuck' and 'pretty feet' were what was said to us.
Point your toes I have no issue with. That is a technical direction.

There is an issue that some women feel they can only take up an activity that requires strength under the label of an activity that is seen as attractive to men.
Based purely on my own experiences, I don't know any who took it up because it is an acceptable way to be strong in the eyes of men.
Most took it up after having children as a fun way to tone up and have some me time.
Some women do take up weight lifting, martial arts, gymnastics, sports acro, trampolining and so on. Those sports don't appeal to the women who choose pole dancing, so there is clearly an issue around women being perceived as strong/muscular
I don't fancy martial arts. I did gymnastics and acro as a child and tried again as an adult but felt that ship had sailed and fancied a new challenge.
A decent tramloline class was too far away. Pole fitnesses had me curious. I went with a friend for a dare (because we were nervous it would be filled with tall thin women being super sexy) and we both loved it. Our preconceptions couldn't have been more wrong.

Most women I know are surprised how much muscle they gained doing pole because qhen they started they had no idea how much it demands of you. (Me included)

Those sports don't appeal to the women who choose pole dancing, so there is clearly an issue around women being perceived as strong/muscular

I completely disagree.

The women in my friends class are all weight lifting types.

They want to do the street gym thing...but aren't confident enough to do it in public.

vimeo.com/119494981

These women are mothers, writers, psychologists, little sisters; they are of diverse ethnicity, body shape, walks of life and are "celebrating dance, empowerment, self-love, and a woman's right to her own sexuality" together with other women. You do you, sis.

or

These women are conforming to the patriarchal male gaze as whilst women have the ability to become writers and psychologists, actually what matters is that their bodies are also celebrated as being sexually gratifying, visually desirable and titillating. They are reclaiming their bodies through broadening the male gaze to involve their diverse bodies, as long as they are clad in black strappy lingerie. Women's sexuality is defined as the validation that they are desirable by men.

Thanks Bertrand!

I'm honestly not being goady, pretty sure you all recognise my name by now!

It's just, as someone who spent a large chunk of their teens and twenties partcipating in a very typically "male" street sport, and seeing how the girls around me denied their own physicality and strength just to fit in with societys expectations of them, it worries me that a simple miswording of something can cloud the real issue.

Honestly, I hate strip clubs, burlesque, etc.
It is not empowering...we all know that!

But having witnessed first hand both pole "dancing" as a sport, and the attitudes of women towards street sports, I am very confident in putting forward my view that pole dancing as a sport is a womans way of doing what the menz do in street gym, only without the judgement.

Go and look at videos of street gym stuff on YouTube, then watch skateboarding/BMXing etc.

If you can find girls/women they will be the odd token one, not 50%, not by a long shot, and I know for a fact it's not just because they don't want to.
It's because for a load of internalised bullshit misogyny, they feel like they "shouldn't" and "it's not for them".

The Olympics committee decides on what are Olympic sports, taking nominations from the various sports organising bodies that want to be considered.

@LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle, you think we're all blinkered by revulsion, so I don't know if you'd even take what's said seriously tbh. There is an issue that some women feel they can only take up an activity that requires strength under the label of an activity that is seen as attractive to men. Some women do take up weight lifting, martial arts, gymnastics, sports acro, trampolining and so on. Those sports don't appeal to the women who choose pole dancing, so there is clearly an issue around women being perceived as strong/muscular. Just look at the grief that Serena Williams gets for her physique. That doesn't mean that pole dancing is the answer though. It's the attitude to women and strength/muscularity that needs challenging.

Lana- I'm thinking about your posts-I'll be back!

It's the antecedents of "pole" that are the issue. As someone said earlier, it's like the "burlesque is so empowering" narrative.

And as I said, I don't see an issue with telling other women that they are wrong if what they are doing is damaging to other women.

Is no one seriously going to address my points??

I normally am in complete agreement with most of you, but as I say above, the revulsion at the words "pole dancing" is actually clouding everyones view.

This has absolutely nothing to do with club dancing, and everything to do with women feeling like they have to label something that for men, is just a sport, as pole dancing, just so they feel confident enough to actually do it.

Again, like I said, if you compare proper pole "dancing" to the street gym stuff, IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME.

I have had to take my own feminist glasses off for a minute to see this issue through different eyes.

Like i said......womens gymnastics, to me, having actually seen proper sport "pole dancing" in the flesh (as it were!), is more problematic.

The actual real issue here, is women and girls feeling so unable to join in something like street gym, that they have to do it under the guise of pole dancing, when in reality it is anything but.

With the gyrating, grinding moves and the hair flicking taken out it is identical to all those guys who get so much praise on social media for hanging off lamp posts.

Who decides if it's an Olympic sport? Why judo and not karate or aikido? If pole dancing is allowed then why not Irish dancing, Zumba or aerobics?

I keep seeing the question "why a bikini" posed.

I took pole dance classes - not because I thought it was sexy, rather because it was available in my gym as a class and I was curious.

I was adamant I wouldn't wear skimpy outfits when I started BUT I'm the end I had to because the way the pole works is that your skin "sticks" to it, do you have to expose as much skin as possible. I found that otherwise you just slip off as clothes have no grip.

I also found that dispite me misgivings pole is incredibly difficult and there are numerous styles. "sexy pole" is just one type, but athletic pole (the type I was doing) focuses more on technique rather than flamboyance.

In fact any sort of gyration is banned in athletic pole.

I can see why there is concern, and pole will be hard to get away from it's seedy beginnings, but as an athletic sport, and one created by women, I think perhaps there is a chance with the help of the Olympics it can evolve into something spectacular ACTUALLY for women INVENTED BY women that moves past "sexy" and into "impressive" (the flexibility of women lends itself to pole better than men).

I realise that I might be being naive. But I think it could be a subverted win.

I did gymnastics throughout my childhood and into my early teenage years. Boys had to point their toes as much as the girls and I never heard anyone telling me or anyone else to "suck and tuck". I wore my hair out of the way, however I liked, often it was short. It was all about strength and flexibility, and we were praised for effort and for achieving a move that we hadn't done before.

The discussion about gymnastics is mixing rhythmic with artistic. I agree that rhythmic gymnastics is essentially dance, and isn't something that I'd see as an Olympic sport. The difference between men's and women's floor routine in artistic gymnastics is that women's is done to music and contains dance elements. I'd happily get rid of those features and make it equivalent to the men's routines (or vice versa whichever people prefer).

I think it's totally acceptable to consider the origins (and continuing use) of poledancing as an activity done to tittilate men in strip clubs.

I find the idea of assicoating the type of circus acts I am talking about with strip clubs really offensive to me and the circus performers
I agree.

Whatever people's personal views are on pole i think we all agree that there is a massive differenve between people training in pole as a fitness and artistic discipline and training in erotic pole dance for strip clubs.

Pole dancing has no place being considered a "sport" at all in my (really rather judgmental) view.

Oh come on, Lass, that's rather disingenuous, don't you think? Even if one thinks of pole dancing as a circus / acrobatic act, it's also now impossible to disassociate it from grubby strip clubs.

I've never been in a strip club. I find the idea of assicoating the type of circus acts I am talking about with strip clubs really offensive to me and the circus performers.

She is incredible. But if it’s a serious sport, why is she in a tiny bikini? Why the splits in said bikini so that you can see the shape of her labia? Why the hair flicking and gyrating? It’s a sexualised performance. And it’s problematical in the extreme.

Exactly. Other than the sexualised performance the skill demonstrated are those of gymnastics. If pole dancers want to compete in the Olympics get in line with the gymnasts.

There is nothing sexual about it

Oh come on, Lass, that's rather disingenuous, don't you think? Even if one thinks of pole dancing as a circus / acrobatic act, it's also now impossible to disassociate it from grubby strip clubs.

And to all of you arguing about the aspects of pole dancing, as we seeit in clubs, are literally completely missing what should be the major feminist aspect of this.

When I was a teen, and BMXing, the only other girls who even owned bikes just sort of "hung around" on them and were too intimadated to "join in" with the boys....not because they didn't want to, but because they were afraid of being seen as "masculine" and of being laughed at.

I hated that. I really fucking did.
It's not their fault, it's the fault of a society that judges girls and women who want to do typically "male" persuits, especially something as physical and dangerous as "street" sports like BMX, skateboarding and parcourt.

It wasn't even the guys themselves...they literally couldn't give a shit about your genitals....just as long as you were into it, that was enough.
But it was the girls themselves that held them back, a fear of being seen as "butch" or "unsexy".

Proper sport pole "dancing", as far as I can see, is women who want to be as strong and as flexible as those street gym guys, but who have been socialised to think they shouldn't be doing that.

And that is the big feminist issue here imo.

With you on that lana.
I did gymnastics throughout my youth and there was a huge focus on having 'pretty feet' and 'suck and tuck' and being very girly and prim. The praise was all about how pretty we looked, hair was always very little girl like etc.

If I compare that to my pole group. We get told to 'activate your glutes for stability', 'point your toes', 'rotate that leg'. The praise we get is like 'nice one. That looks strong', 'love that. You looked so secure'

The language between the two classes is noticeable.
As a girl my experienve of gymnastics was to look pretty, thin, flexible and young.
As a woman in a pole class my experience is women of all sizes yelling 'shit I'm going!!' and lots of peer to peer encouragement about getting better and stronger.

This is where I think we disagree because you see it as an individual attack on the woman and the choices they are making.
I don't so much see it as an individual attack. I just think that perhaps people get too focused on what they inherently don't like about an issue that they see everything about it like that. Sometimes I feel some feminist chats stray into women deciding what is best for other women (e.g. i had a uni tutor who couldn't get her head around the fact that some women choose to be SAHP. In her head the idea anyone would do it only proved how naive these women were. We had many a heated discussion about this).

Maisy you can lecture me all you like. It does not alter the fact there are many , many circus acts doing the sort of acts we are talking about who realise the demographics of their audience and getting as many people as possible through the door mean wearing skimpy, sexy clothes is not an option.

Maybe the woman in the video I linked is just more talented as stripping down to micro knickers wasn't necessary.