Second Coren disappointment of the weekend

GoingIn
I hear what you're saying.
I can see why some people nay need thr adult classes to be more promoted and it to seem more distinct from sexy pole in society's mindset before being happy for children to do it.
I would happily let my kids do it, but would hold off performing and comeptitions because of the social attiudes as theu stand at the moment.

Knusper That makes sense.
How to go about trying to win the battle is a challenge if I'm honest.
I wouldn't be happy with normalising women being exploited but don't think pole in itself does that. I think it's misogynistic men who do that. I think getting that divide and distinction and publuc awareness/perception shift is a huge task to try and achieve. I don't think it will happen overnight, but have optimism that we'll get there. After all, if you'd asked me 5 years ago if I would pole dance I would have said 'no way. Why would I want to stripper dance? I can do weights at the gym' so I get how people feel. My view changed over time and now I'm very much pro pole.

TammyswansonTwo
But only a sexist man would think that the battle is won brcause women do pole for exercise. It reflects badlu on them if they seriously think they are the 'winners' of some battle and highlights their own stupidity if they actually believe all these women have been conned into doing a sexy dance for their gaze.
All reasonable men I know are more inpressed with my skills (and new found arm muscles!) than anything else, but maybe that's because I don't hang around with sexist men who objectify women.

Reminded of that line in the film Crazy Stupid Love where Ryan Gosling's character says something like "the battle of the sexes is over, we won when women started doing pole dancing as exercise". I think he has a point. So many of the things that women embrace and are seen as empowering are really just playing into the hands of men. Each to their own of course.

I think that women should be free to crack on and enjoy whatever hobbies they choose. Their clothes and behaviour do not make them responsible for misogyny and sexual exploitation. And yet this whole thing still sits so uneasily for me.

Normalising something that some women find empowering (pole) risks simultaneously normalising something that disempowers other women (pole dancing). There's clearly a ton of PR work to do as both are inextricably linked in many/most people's minds. And most people won't care enough to give it a second's thought, let alone take part in a 21-page online discussion.

This isn't pole fitness women's problem necessarily - men exploit pole dancers not pole fitness hobbyists. And I totally get the argument that women shouldn't feel responsible for sorting out the male-created problem of sexual exploitation. But I guess that, in terms of solidarity, I can't support the mainstreaming of an otherwise innocuous activity when I know that this is likely - unfairly, unintentionally - to legitimise a separate activity that exploits vulnerable women. Bloody infuriating to even be discussing this, as the dilemma wasn't created by women. But the problem does exist.

I suppose that as women it pays to pick our battles and I'm still not convinced that this one is winnable. I think that the battle itself might actively harm some women for the sake of other women's hobbies, which currently isn't worth it for me in terms of feminist priorities. Obviously other women will disagree, which is fine.

I don't know, would I be happy if my 3 year old daughter wanted to do toddler pole dancing? Or if my teenage daughter wanted to start pole dancing? Would my sons ever want to give it a go? I have friends who do it as a fitness hobby but I don't think I'd be comfortable with the idea of very young kids doing it. Maybe when it moves much further away from its seedy start.

Loving this thread 😜💋👅

I see many points of view and have repeatedly said that throughout.

I understand people having concerns abiut its origins and its use in strip clubs.

I totally understand a range of views on whether it should/ shouldn't be an olympic sport.

What i don't get (not through deliberate misunderstanding as you put it) is the repeateded conflation of all pole styles into one, or the assertion that because it happens in strip clubs the discipline is damaging to women or objections on the ground that 'it might give an inpression to men'.
I also don't buy the idea that pole should change to meet the ever varying set of criteria on this thread for it to be considered ok for women, when most of those objections seem to be telling women how to dress/move in a way that doesn't cause poor men to think of a strip club.
If a guy is honestly reminded of a strip club as i drop the f bomb trying to climb into a move with zero grace then he's welcome to (although I'd question what sort of club he goes to )

But that's OK. So long as both points of view are on the thread, people can make up their own minds.

"So yes..the sexy side does seem to be your main issue. (And that is before we get onto what type of 'impression' a group of sexist men mighy get becaus we have to protect them)"
If you can say this after everything I've written then I honestly think you must be deliberately misunderstanding. Or so wedded to your cause that you just can't see anyone else's point of view.
I understand what you're saying. I don't agree with you but I understand you.

You've already said countless times that it's the association with strip clubs that is problematic, that it is bad for women & that it's problematic because socially people will always associate pole with strip clubs and that women promoting pole normalises it and supports the view that women like being objectified really.

So yes..the sexy side does seem to be your main issue. (And that is before we get onto what type of 'impression' a group of sexist men mighy get becaus we have to protect them)

"I also think it takes time for perceptions and attitudes to change. If i can be part of challenging the idea thay pole = sexy then I'm doing my bit."

So do you still think that it's the pole=sexy thing that people object to?

NashvilleQueen
I agree on not needing her article to consider whether it should/shouldn't be an olympic sport. There's loads of debate even within the pole community.

What I felt that article brought out was a nasty side of women being encouraged to sneer at others.

What I like is that you can see where we are coming from. I think it's going to be difficult to shift attitudes to pole as long as it's still commonly presented in thr sexy way but I also think it takes time for perceptions and attitudes to change. If i can be part of challenging the idea thay pole = sexy then I'm doing my bit.
E.g. I have friends (who took thr piss when i said i wanted to try it) who will now say they have defended pole on the grounds of 'my friend does it and I didn't realise...'
Baby steps, but to shift attitudes you have to work with individuals.

One can have an opinion on pole dancing as a potential Olympic sport that isn't formed by reading VC-M’s article. She does have contradictions - she directed a porn film years ago. I admire the genuine determination of the women on this thread to robustly defend pole dancing as well as their belief that society will ultimately change its perceptions towards it. I think you’re on a hiding to nothing but that’s no reason to give up.

Why thank you derxa
But so true

When you say gambling society thinks of people pissing away their benefits money on bingo apps watching jeremry kyle or unemployed men frittering away their family savings in the bookies on a saturday afternoon.
We shouldn't give any weight to Victoria Corren Mitchell and her skill for poker playing. In fact we shouldn't give any time to it. Discussing people playing poker at a high level just normalises gambling and just tells people on council estates that it's a reasonable way to spend their money.
I mean, if it was a reasonable hobby then you wouldn't mind children doing it, but you don't. And you don't see my first casinos in thr early learning centre.

I mean surely there's no difference betwren her poker playing and people using grubby slot machines. They're all gambling after all
Best post of the thread.

@MaisyPops

Couldn't agree more with your latest post.

I mean surely there's no difference betwren her poker playing and people using grubby slot machines. They're all gambling after all.

Victoria Coren Mitchell is very vocal on the subject of "grubby" gambling- particularly high street slot machines, and has advised the government on the subject. Sadly, she was ignored, because her advice went against vested interests.

m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/wendy-saunt/feminism-and-pole-dancing_b_5241421.html

A good article. I wrote a long and thoughtful reply to add to it and my phone crashed and closed.

Reclaiming pole in such a way that reclaimed pole sits happily alongside misogynist and sexually exploitative uses of pole isn't reclamation, it's collusion. Reclaim itproperlyI.e. in such a way that it disrupts paternalistic assumptions about women on poles
The thing is you (& others) have zero intention of considering the differneces which is why it is almost pointless discussing it.

If you actually believe that people in a studio in sports wear learning tricks and moves is colluding with the sex industry then there is no way to have a productive discussion because it will keep coming back to the same criticisms:
You reallu should do pole on something else because pole is a phallic symbol
You shouldn't wear crop top and shorts in case it reminds men of strip clubs
You shouldn't do certain moves in case it reminds men of strip clubs
You shouldn't do floor work in case it reminds a man of a gyrating woman he saw in porn when he was 17
You shouldn't wear makeup for performance in case it reminds men of strip clubs
You shouldn't have you hair down in case it reminds men of strip clubs.
You should cover your body because seeing a woman's body reminds men that the female body is for their gaze

These poor heless men clearly have no intellect to manage to understand that strip clubs and pole are different. In fact, they are so fragile we should alter an entite sport around them in case they have certain thoughts.
Wow. This new version of pole is so empowering. I can't wait to cover up, dress and act a certain way because it would be awful if men had to regualte their own thoughts.
This sounds like the bloody duggars, cover your collar bones and knees because it might cause a man to stumble and think sexy thoughts. Just wear with abaya because if a man sees your figure then it might turn him on.

See the problem? Getting women to change to protect the sensitivities of men is not empowering.

Women should be free to do their own sports and dress how they like (pole or not pole, covered or not) without being suggested they change to protect men.

If your solution to pole being sociallu associated with strip clubs (despite there beimg multiple varieties) is to rewrite the entire discipline then I'm afraid that's not liberating to women at all. That's expecting women to tiptoe around a group of misogynists.

Makes me wonder how my male friends and family manage to look at me if my pole pictures are so stripper like.