Number of trans people who are murderers is greater than the number of trans people who are murder victims in UK **Title amended by MNHQ**

What suffragette tactics do you think will work on us? To accept males in our spaces? How will you educate me into that?

I didn’t say they were wrong. I asked what other methods you think would work to educate me.

Education is needed

That’s what you said. So educate me then. So far nothing you have said has changed my mind, not even slightly. So what else can you try? What else would you like to try?

Everytime I see a male referred to as "woman" I want to shout "fuck off you gaslighting bastards".

I am so so sick of men lying to get what they want, at our expense. Does anyone else get that wound up about it, or just me?

So the Suffragettes were wrong were they? Lemon Jello. Of course I can counter it LemonJello. Karen White is a violent criminal. Rose West is a violent criminal, so lets ban all women from women only spaces too, shall we?

Christ im tempted to report that yawn!

But im not a twat...

"Two years on hormones and she is very decidedly more female"

Males who take female hormones remain as male as they were before they started taking the hormones. They will forever be as male as males who do not take female hormones. Taking hormones does not change a person's sex.

It is worrying that a parent of someone who is taking female hormones does not understand this biological fact.

Tell me more about the tactics you want to use. I mentioned we had violence and bomb threats already, what else do you think would be effective in your effort to ‘educate’ me?

Got nothing to counter that one do you? So you pretend to be bored. By sexual assault.

Don't dare to say who I care about Sophoclesnot. Here we go LemonJello with the whole Karen White argument again, yawn.

As for 'locked up' I was referring to your desire to lock up transgender women with men rather than women so women could be safe and also your notion of safe spaces. Your vitriol and mockery was such that I was just putting the idea that you could be locked up away from any male threat or go and live on your true born 'women only' island. That way you could avoid all those unpleasant nasty people who might attack you.

My vitriol and mockery? When was that, then?

Thanks for clarifying your remark about who should be locked away and why, though. Good to know that we've now covered the "Look what you made me do" portion of the argument.

You care not one whit for women and girls.

Own it.

Tell that to Karen Whites victims.

My daughter's feelings are as important as my feelings. I have never said they are more important that your 'biologically born women's' feelings. Don't put words into my mouth. Education is needed to show these alleged vulnerable biological women who fear transgender women that they are not a threat. Violent and abusive men, women and transgender men and women are a threat. That is a different issue.

We’ve already had violence and bomb threats, what else did you have in mind?

Try the pink news one about self id.

Well, the transgender community need to start some suffragette tactics then. If men, small-minded conservative people and misguided radical feminists want to thwart the freedoms of transgender people, they need to fight for them.

And you would be best to have this conversation with your child. Their feelings are not more important than women’s and if you lead them to believe they are you are setting them up for a fall.

Polling here on Mumsnet? Where are these polls?

Have you not seen the polling? You do not have the numbers on your side.

I have no vitriol. Just honesty. I do not consent to sharing facilities with your child. You are trying to force women to do this. Not happening.

Lemon, your bitter vitriol is untrue. Most women are accepting of transgender women. A small but vocal minority are not. The fact that you will not even accept a fully transitioned transgender woman destroys all your arguments about Self ID. You are just full of hate and discrimination.

The question was "what do you want to get out of this thread" and your response was "to get you locked up". Is that correct? What did you mean by that?

Yes please. I would like an answer to this too.

And make an exception? Nope.

Your child is not welcome in female spaces. The vast majority of women do not want them there. You need to find a way to have that conversation with your child or you are setting them up very poorly for the future.

How is allowing my daughter into a women's safe space bad for her? Please elaborate. Please explain the problem in letting her in for women?

Posters have tirelessly explained why letting male bodied people who think they are female into female only spaces is bad for females.
You are not listening, nor do you care one iota for the women who will be affected and harmed by this you are happy to sacrifice women on the altar of this ideology to suit yourself and your transgender daughter and that is the antithesis of being a feminist.

I think I am the only tolerant person here. I'm tired of the 'biology argument'. What about fish that have changed sex as a result of hormones in the water? Biology is determined by hormones.

You are not tolerant, you only want what suits you and damn everyone else. You may be tired of the biology argument - too bad, female biology is the reason for female oppression, female biology has been weaponised against females for millenia, females require safe spaces from males because of their female biology. Chromosomes decide sex, no matter how many hormones a male takes he will not change his biological sex and become female. Humans cannot change sex.

You dismiss all my arguments out of hand without providing any effective counter argument apart from 'Biology' and genitalia. Who are you to decide? You have conveniently attached it to women's survival in a hostile aggressive male world

You have been provided with pages of counter argument, statistics, proper researched and verified data and you dismiss it because it is not what you want to hear. Females have the right to decide who comes into their spaces, females have the right to say no, no is no we should not need to justify it. You cannot decide to the strip the safeguarding, comfort, privacy and dignity that other females require from them it is not your decision.

If you want to change the status quo it is up to you to provide the evidence that allowing any male into a female only space because said male feels like a woman will cause NO harm, or negative impact on females - you cannot do this you can only say that your transgender daughter isn't a threat you cannot prove it and you cannot prove that A.N. Other TW is not a threat. Even setting aside the threat element you are unilaterally deciding that other females feelings around comfort, privacy and dignity are worth less than those of your transgender daughter, that is intolerance in a nutshell.

Make the exception?

Ah, the argument from "just the tip".

There are some people who have both male and female genitalia.

Seaslugs do. No human has both male and female functioning genitalia except for a single case of a chimera who carried genetic material absorbed from her dead twin brother.

One person, two genomes. That makes her a true hermaphrodite in the sense conjoined twins are a person with two heads.

no one is that stupid they think people with intersex conditions are all born with both sets of genitals.

You'd think, but to be honest, not much in this surprises me any more. There is some epic naivety and out-and-out dimness out there, plus the fact that your average anti woman activist is wont to lie like a cheap rug if it suits their agenda.