Number of trans people who are murderers is greater than the number of trans people who are murder victims in UK **Title amended by MNHQ**

Damned auto correct - that's more male sex offenders than the total number of female offenders of any sort.

Go on then. Tell me which extra bit of context is missing. I've given a thorough break down of the numbers, borne out by official statistics. (If you want an extra number, how about this one: there are more sex offenders in the male estate than there are offenders in total for all crimes of any sort in the male estate).

While we're at it - do you think Karen White should have been placed in a women's prison?

But you have taken it out of context

This is a direct quote from the BBC article

"Of the 60 serving time for sexual offences:

27 were convicted of rape (plus a further five of attempted rape)
13 were convicted of possessing, distributing or making indecent images of children
13 were convicted of sexual assault or attempted sexual assault
Nine were convicted of causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
Seven were convicted of sexual activity with a child
Seven were convicted of indecent assault or gross indecency

Those numbers add up to more than 60 because some prisoners are serving time for more than one offence.

We don't know the gender of the victims or perpetrators in these cases".

Well holy fuck. That's rather a lot don't you think? And what the fuck does "we don't know the gender of the victims or perpetrators in these cases" even mean? Leaving aside the unfortunate victims what we have here, I suspect, is very near to 60 prisoners who were born with penises.

Gosh, Feminist4, talk about an own goal.

The BBC fact check article confirmed FPFW's figures (gleaned from FOI requests and carefully going through the published prison stats), rather than debunking them. All the BBC were able to do was to leave out the crucial bit of context that 98% of sexual offenders in prison in the UK are in the male estate.

For 2017, there were 120 prisoners in the female estate due to having committed sexual offences. If trans people are 1% of the population (the figure Stonewall and others have suggested), one would expect 1 or 2 to be transwomen. FPFW put the number of prisoners identifying as transwomen in the male estate at 48 (somewhat lower than the figure in the BBC article, though I suppose it's possible that some of the "60, we don't know what gender" could be in the women's estate - though trust me on this one, this is only going to make the maths look even worse for the transgenderist side of the argument).

So, if we took all of those transwomen and placed them in the women's estate, we'd now have 48 out of 168 women sex offenders (on the much vaunted TWAW definition of womanhood) being transwomen, i.e. 28%. Instead of 1%. That's one hell of a jump.

With numbers like that, Feminist4, I wouldn't be drawing attention to that BBC article if I were you. I'd be putting it in the proverbial locked filing cabinet in a dark cellar down a broken staircase with a beware of the leopard sign on it.

And as Lang says, it wasn't gender critical feminists who did this to the stats. It was Stonewall's relentless push for self ID and a "trans" umbrella that encompassed fetishistic cross dressers. I'd be much more amenable to the "no true trans" argument if people said "you know what, we want to limit 'being trans' to people with genuine gender dysphoria - and the Karen Whites, Davina Ayrtons, Lisa Hauxwells of this world are not true trans, they're male fetishists opportunistically trying to pretend to be something they're not".

But by insisting "trans" is "anyone who says they are", I'm afraid you've sawn off the branch you're sitting on.

Really not going to get a very high mark for effort on this one, feminist4. It lacks any style, the attempted goady pretend 'empathy' for the other GF reanimator is very lacklustre, and your tone lacks conviction. It's a bit lazy really, as far as this sort of thing goes.

Perhaps you could try some all caps shouting? Bring in some more socks? You really need to invest some effort if you want recipes.

Gilligan investigated those figures as part of the Sunday Times research and it confirmed FPFW's figures.

mobile.twitter.com/mragilligan/status/1029082413304094721

For people who are interested, there'll be contemporaneous discussion of the Sunday Times piece on FWR via AS.

It should also be remembered that there are people convicted of murder and attempted rape who applied for transfer to the women's prison estate on the basis of a GRC and ended up on early release (and possibly not recorded in the statistics). E.g., Karen Jones - the one who was invited by Lord Patel to address the HoL on transgender prisoner issues.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3370661-2009-case-of-a-judge-ordering-an-intact-male-rapist-into-a-female-prison-because-he-had-a-GRC

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3192486-Lord-Patel-Karen-Jones-thread-anyone-want-to-go-to-House-of-Lords-to-talk-to-Lord-Patel

Jeez, it never penetrates does it:

This is a feminism board we discuss anything and everything that could negatively impact or actively harm women and their rights.

Pro women - that's it.

Excerpt with BBC speculation thrown in. We can only go on the numbers by the MOJ...speculating about what MIGHT be going on is daft in a 'fact check'

Reality Check verdict: A government survey has counted 125 transgender prisoners in England and Wales, but the Ministry of Justice says these figures are not yet a reliable reflection of the true numbers. The MoJ says 60 of them have been convicted of one or more sexual offences but it didn't identify their gender. There are likely to be more trans inmates, on shorter sentences and who are less likely to be sex offenders, who don't show up in this data.

The verdict is the bloody same

I’m surprised at the transphobia in this thread.

Bullshite! You came on here to find an excuse to shout Transphobe! I don’t care! Bigot, transphobe, etc ceases to mean anything when constantly misused by the TRAs.

I’m surprised at the transphobia in this thread. I feel for MIrandaI and think some of you are over -reacting to her comments, and being pretty nasty. I for one which can empathise with her position.

Look, it's not our fault that Stonewall extended its definition of transgender so wide that it now takes in all the crossdressing weirdos - you know, the ones who used to just steal knickers off washing lines, not call themselves women and get taken seriously - and it's fucked up the offending statistics so badly the "trans community" has a PR problem.

Take it up with Stonewall. They drew in the numpties, not us.

So you only like stories that corroborate your views. Surely the point is to debate the issue and look at both sides of the argument.

Well we all know how trans centric the BBC has become so I’m hardly going to respect any of their statistics.

What about this story, which suggests that the statistics being posted here are inaccurate
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-42221629

Welcome to Mumsnet, Feminist4.

Not clicking on random links. Can you summarise please?

www.bakadesuyo.com/2010/11/which-are-more-violent-mens-prisons-or-womens/

Thanks for bumping this thread!

It fits quite nicely with amnesty's recent ridiculous statement:

"Transwomen are suffering violence and abuse as women and because they are trans. Over a quarter of trans people experience domestic violence and two women a week are killed by a partner or ex-partner in England and Wales"
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3383981-Amnesty-has-jumped-the-shark

Well if the only hateful thing you could find to bump was this from over a year ago, I would say the transactivist narrative that transphobia is so rampant here is even more clearly false than it already was.

Why go specifically looking for something, only to complain when you find it that your trans child finds it upsetting? Its just bizarre.

And yeah, as pointed out, only reason people are bothered about this (along with it being more examples of MALE VIOLENCE) is because of transactivist lies that trans people are really likely to be murdered in this country and such. Kind of like the reason trans child suicide is discussed is because transactivists always bring it up. And make out like its common. When its not.

Emotionally manipulative bullshit. Yet we are the nasty ones. You have to laugh really

Just in case you are still reading m1randa1 it is not this board that is toxic it is the ideology that underpins the TRA movement that is extremely toxic and hideously allergic to any sunlight being shone onto their incorrect assertions.

It is NOT a witch hunt (good use of that phrase by the way as that is how TRAs refer to anyone who dare so much as question their insidious agenda) it is a discussion about proper, reliable backed up FACTS that give the lie to the incorrect, made-up assertions of TRAs.

Why wouldn't/shouldn't anyone check the narrative that is being sold as an absolute truth?

It's very confusing to me that talking about trans women being murdered is so prevalent and it gets shoehorned into every discussion of trans rights, even though trans women are at an unusually low risk of being murdered and even the cases where it's happened were not motivated by "transphobia."

But talking about trans women committing murder is demonising and witch hunting and so hurtful to people who are having a hard time and makes trans women get abused on the street and ... well, this is usually where the suicide threats get wheeled out, but they stormed off instead.

It makes the whole movement seem less like a human rights campaign and more like a mission to claim victimhood at all costs and in defiance of inconvenient facts and logic. Like a mass-scale personality disorder.