Number of trans people who are murderers is greater than the number of trans people who are murder victims in UK **Title amended by MNHQ**

"It looks as if in the US at least transgender people experience an average murder rate. However, trans women of colour are disproportionately likely to be murdered."

This is not true, and you have not read the thread. The murder rate for black men (34.21 per 100,000), specifically is many, many times, higher than that of white men. The white male rate is 3.90 per 100,000.

And a VERY important stat is that the black female rate is 4.41, while the white female rate is 1.45

So we can see these factors:

• black female vs white female 3x more likely
• black male vs black female 7.8 more likely
• white male vs white female 2.7x more likely

Anyway, the murder rate for black transwomen is consistent with that for black males.

Black lives matter, not just black transwomen lives.

We have a ridiculous situation where a bunch of people think trans people are incapable of being criminals. If any are they cry comes up they are either not really trans or how dare you upset other trans people
If people talk about female drug addicts or violent women I am not offended because I am neither of those. Why are we expected to pretend a trans person cannot be a criminal
Trans women are male so they are in fact much more likely than women to be criminals. It you are a trans woman who is not criminal then you have no reason to be offended

Imagine buses emblazoned with 'Tory austerity politics hit women hardest'!

WTF has that got to do with male pattern violence and sexual violence and how it expresses - or doesn't express - itself within the MTF trans population?

And WTF do you get off telling women how to spend their money? I think the trans lobby should spend more of its government and corporate third sector funding campaigning on austerity that affects women. Why are they spending it all on political propaganda instead? Don't they care about women even though they call themselves women?

My point stands though: we have a common enemy in the larger systemic issues which impact women worldwide and we should be addressing those instead

A) most women can eat and breathe at the same time. B) what do you mean by women.

And you can't use US homocide rates in the UK. The issues are different.

Munro Berkdorf reckoned they had, what was it, three years to live? Because a Brazilian transwomen prostitute's life expectancy is thirty five. Leveraging murder for political capital is not a good look.

Women in prostitution as a group are overrepresented in murder statistics.
People from certain ethnic minority backgrounds are also more likely to be victims of homicide.
Being from an impoverished economic background can also put you at a higher risk of being the victim of crime.
So these are all independent risk factors for being the victim of homicide that are not unique to trans people.
If the state of being trans in and of itself was a significant independent risk factor for being the victim of murder in places like the USA or the UK, then one would expect to see much higher murder rates for all trans people (that cross ethnic/economic divides). But this is simply not the case, according to the evidence I have seen.

Hm.

Datun, others have used US-specific details in the thread and have been allowed to run free with their analyses. The reference is a useful one as it points out the reasons why the data on this topic is not sound, and these reasons apply to the UK too.

FematsTheorum the OP was using the topic of murder to make a polemical point too.

My point stands though: we have a common enemy in the larger systemic issues which impact women worldwide and we should be addressing those instead. If the same energy was directed at, for example, poverty in women's lives... imagine if a full page ad in the Metro had been taken out about that! Imagine buses emblazoned with 'Tory austerity politics hit women hardest'!

It looks as if in the US

This is the UK, not the US, so any comparisons are meaningless.

Stop haranguing feminists. We didn't widen the definition of trans to include a population orders of magnitude more likely to be sex offenders. We didn't campaign for self-ID. We didn't recommend driving a coach and horses through safeguarding frameworks.

If you don't think Karen White is a woman and feel the Karen White case is damaging for genuine transgender women as you put it - take it up with Stonewall and stop bad mouthing the women who have been pointing this out for years.

Well put.

The other thing is that the murder rate of prostituted women is horrendously high anyway and the stats for trans women are part and parcel of this.

I think the thing about the trans murder rate, Spanna, (and the trans suicide rate) is the way they are misused to make a polemical point.

Murders of any sort are terrible. Murders for reasons of hatred (whether transphobia - and yes, this is an instance where I'm more than happy to use that word, racial hatred, homophobia, misogyny) always seem particularly awful because they seem both pointless and evil.

But the world wide figures (which include the sky-high murder rates of trans prostitutes in Brazil - shocking, but in line with their generally sky-high murder rate) are then used as part of a scare campaign: "Look at this terrible headline murder rate (no, don't dig down to see what it looks like in your country) therefore trans people are far more oppressed than any other group, therefore women must cede women's rights to transwomen, because relative to trans women (based on these murder rates) women are actually a relatively privileged group."

Pointing out that this is a misuse of statistics is not the same as minimising murder. I can say, for example, it is terrible that men are sometimes murdered by their female partners (and I believe this: a male relative of mine was battered to death by his wife), and also note that women are far more likely to be murdered by their male partners, and that therefore as a society we should allocate resources accordingly. That doesn't detract from the awfulness of men being murdered, it just points up the fact that accurate statistics are needed for making policy decisions.

spannablue

It's a complete waste of everyone's time you talking about US stats and surveys, when we are talking about law in the UK.

As people on the thread have noted, the data is very difficult to read due to the low numbers/lack of statistical significance, the lack of official stats and the range of transgender identities which make it hard to calculate anyway.

It looks as if in the US at least transgender people experience an average murder rate. However, trans women of colour are disproportionately likely to be murdered. A key issue is the tendency for the bodies of transgender women who are murdered to show signs of 'overkill' (a phenomenon where the severity of injury far surpasses the violence needed to kill them). Most of these murder victims appear to be sex workers.

What concerns me about this thread is the lack of empathy towards any murder victim who may well be someone's child, parent or sibling. As feminists we should be concerned with a. the social conditions which produce the extreme male violence demonstrated in the overkill phenomenon, which affects women worldwide; b. the social conditions which push people into sex work, which affects women worldwide, and c. the intersectionality issue which points to the idea that black people who don't fit in societal gender norms are more likely to experience negative consequences- which affects women, worldwide.

The violence experienced by transgender people has strong overlaps with the violence experienced by non- trans people, especially women, and is to some extent a useful barometer as to where we are in terms of global sex-based equalities.

Reference: Stotzer, Rebecca (2017) 'Data Sources Hinder Our Understanding of Transgender Murders' American Journal of Public Health, Vol.107(9), pp.1362-1363

So Ian Huntley isn’t really trans, he’s just saying he is to escape attacks from men in prison. How do we know he’s taking the piss? Perhaps we need a system where people like him see a doctor and get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria rather than just letting him state himself he is trans.
Not all men are sex offenders. We don’t know who is and who isn’t so we keep all men out of female spaces because their anatomy and chromosomes place them in the category of humans that are more likely to attack females. Decent men understand why it is not appropriate for them to be in female spaces. Not all TW are attackers either. But the same rule should apply. It is not appropriate for a human with a penis to be in a female space. A third space is needed.

Stop haranguing feminists. We didn't widen the definition of trans to include a population orders of magnitude more likely to be sex offenders. We didn't campaign for self-ID. We didn't recommend driving a coach and horses through safeguarding frameworks.

If you don't think Karen White is a woman and feel the Karen White case is damaging for genuine transgender women as you put it - take it up with Stonewall and stop bad mouthing the women who have been pointing this out for years.

THIS. ALL OF IT.

That Owl article is patent nonsense and was debunked in turn by Andrew Gilligan. Figures back up the FPFW findings which were even less than it seems they are, as has been pointed out to you.

But I think you know that if you do take it up with Stonewall, you will be told you are an evil bigot and transphobe who is in league with right wing Christian fundamentalist Americans. Like we are. Hence you coming on here and moaning at us instead of moaning at the people whose fault all this actually is.

So which of your links do you want us to belief? The Indy one from 2017, or the more recent BBC fact check one? They seem to contradict one another. (Incidentally, I belief the Ministry of Justice had to concede that FPFW's stats were pretty much right - in fact, if anything, underestimated the gravity of the situation.)

Anyway, back on point - does this mean you don't support self ID? Good, neither do I.

Or do you support it, but just not for Karen White (and if not, why not)?

I think Karen White is an abomination... This damages genuine transgender women, who suffer enough already.

I don't know how many times I need to say this to you before it sinks in: take this up with Stonewall.

Stop haranguing feminists. We didn't widen the definition of trans to include a population orders of magnitude more likely to be sex offenders. We didn't campaign for self-ID. We didn't recommend driving a coach and horses through safeguarding frameworks.

If you don't think Karen White is a woman and feel the Karen White case is damaging for genuine transgender women as you put it - take it up with Stonewall and stop bad mouthing the women who have been pointing this out for years.

But most people who choose to transition, I believe, are genuine and have no ulterior motives

What do you mean by 'transition'? It is a very loose term. It can mean;

• having ones dick and balls chopped off as part of a range of medical and surgical interventions.

• 'living as a woman' - adopting a female name and clothes.

• self-ID-ing as a woman and dressing as a woman when one pleases.

But most people who choose to transition, I believe, are genuine and have no ulterior motives

Where did I insist that anyone who says they are transgender is transgender?

But by insisting "trans" is "anyone who says they are", I'm afraid you've sawn off the branch you're sitting on.

Love this analogy and am stealing.

Also, these statistics have been roundly condemned: www.independent.co.uk/voices/41-per-cent-trans-transgender-trans-women-prisoners-sex-offenders-false-study-statistic-this-is-why-a8072431.html

I abhor the unfair treatment of women. I think we have a long way to go to find fairness and equal treatment in society. I also think we need protection from violent men. However, I don't understand why targeting a transgender women, who seem to suffer terrible abuse from men and women already, is worthwhile. I understand that we don't want Ian Huntley to be accepted in a women's prison, as he is probably using this as a way of escaping attacks against him (by men) in prison. I think Karen White is an abomination, but these are individual cases. There are many bad apples in the world, but we can't just persecute all transgender women for the sins of a few. This damages genuine transgender women, who suffer enough already. There doesn't seem to be enough separation on this board between a group that should have our support and those who abuse it. You can't suggest that all transgender women are potential sex offenders. And I can't imagine the abuse that many transgender women get when they are put in a male prison.

Taken what out of context?

We have known for years that cross dressing is the most common paraphilia among sex offenders.*. We know that Stonewall has extended the definition of trans to include non-dysphoric cross dressers. Ergo, you are going to get a lot of trans sex offenders. It's not a Herculean leap of logic.

The "Karen White PR problem" is not going away. There are hundreds upon thousands more Karen Whites out there and feminists didn't decide to stick them into the "trans community" - Stonewall did.

Like I say, if you don't like it, take it up with Stonewall. You're wasting your time with us. We're well ahead of you.

(*See, for example, Abel 1988: Multiple Paraphilic Diagnoses among Sex Offenders and many other studies from the literature)