Number of trans people who are murderers is greater than the number of trans people who are murder victims in UK **Title amended by MNHQ**

WE have plenty enough data on the fact that violence and sexual violence in particular is an overwhelmingly male problem. If transwomen are so statistically insignificant then it makes not a jot of sense to overhaul sex segregation and the protections it provides to cater to this miniscule population, then, does it?

You can't play that one both ways.

The position I disagree with here is the idea that conclusions can be drawn from such a statistically insignificant sample.

Why are prisons segregated by sex?

Are you familiar with Chesterton's fence? If not, look it up.

Provide evidence that male pattern offending rates are reduced in the MTF trans population.

Or give up.

Men argued that women shouldn't vote because Bad Things Would Happen. They didn't want to change the status quo either. The sky did not fall in.

JFC. Ludicrous. Desperate.

In general, this is the sort of rigour we're looking for with clinical analyses as well as more widely:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3391330-Prof-Kathleen-Stock-WPUK-speech-at-House-of-Lords-Important-disection-of-the-key-issues-for-MPs-policy-makers-etc-with-ref-to-The-Trans-Equality-Report

You mention Ireland - prisoners in Ireland are housed on the basis of their birth sex irrespective of what gender they identify as.

I'm dropping this in as a shorthand way of covering some of the many trial design issues with the Batrinos reference above:

“testosterone causes crime and aggression” myth. It’s a fun subject to talk about because the intelligent human physiological system is an amazing system. However, people who are not privy to the literature on testosterone in regards to race, aggression, crime, sex differences etc are only aware of whatever they read in pop science articles. So since they never read the actual papers themselves, they get a clouded view of a subject.

notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/11/29/sex-differences-in-aggressive-behavior-and-testosterone/

The position I disagree with here is the idea that conclusions can be drawn from such a statistically insignificant sample.

Then we shouldn't go changing the status quo.

Exactly, how many women are you prepared to sacrifice before you feel there is enough data?

You also say stories of individual criminals are not a good basis for generalisation, however, we use, and have used, generalisation about male violence for years as a basis for segregating male and females, as a basis for safeguarding of children, as a basis for much of the criminal law. We are all well aware that not all men are violent, or sexual predators, or both yet we apply a blanket segregation system and those men that are not violent or sexual predators accept this as being right and don't whinge about it.

The problem you have there spanna is that plenty of self ID MTFs don't reduce their testosterone.

Ireland is a different country with a much smaller population of trans people and a different legislative framework.

Stop deflecting.

Unless you have evidence that MTF trans people as a cohort of males are less violent than other males, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Ereshkigal

Men argued that women shouldn't vote because Bad Things Would Happen. They didn't want to change the status quo either. The sky did not fall in.

The status quo has been changed elsewhere (eg Ireland) and there has been no statistically significant spike in violence perpetrated by trans women.

I did not claim claim that MTFs are less violent than what you term 'other male people'. I said 'I suspect that reducing testosterone is likely to reduce aggression' and I did back it up with a reference: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3693622/

You make an extraordinary claim, that MTFs are less violent than other male people, you need to back it up.

The position I disagree with here is the idea that conclusions can be drawn from such a statistically insignificant sample.

Then we shouldn't go changing the status quo.

Sophocles

what do you think happens to male patterns of offending when males transition? You disagree with the position here, so what is the substance behind that disagreement?

I don't think we have enough data one way or another. The populations aren't big enough and data gathering is flawed.

Some people are violent criminals, and some of them are trans. One of them is Karen White, who sounds like a very dangerous and disturbed person. But stories of individual criminals are not a good basis for generalisation.

Vulnerable prisoners need protecting. Most of these are women (ie assigned female at birth women). The prison system is terrible and needs mass reform.

I suspect that reducing testosterone is likely to reduce aggression- reference: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3693622/

The position I disagree with here is the idea that conclusions can be drawn from such a statistically insignificant sample.

It would be the same if suddenly all redheaded men decided they have a reason to access female spaces.

"Anti ginger activists"

Spanna

The reason I ask is because you seem to be calling feminists who support women's rights, anti-trans. I don't really understand how women's rights, women drawing their own boundaries and refusing to compromise means they are transphobic.

It would be the same if suddenly all redheaded men decided they have a reason to access female spaces.

It's got nothing to do with the specific characteristics of the people making their demands, except to become informed about them, in order to refute the reasons.

I disagree with your characterisation of those organisations, and this place.

So, returning to the topic at hand, what do you think happens to male patterns of offending when males transition? You disagree with the position here, so what is the substance behind that disagreement?

Munro Berkdorf reckoned they had, what was it, three years to live? Because a Brazilian transwomen prostitute's life expectancy is thirty five. Leveraging murder for political capital is not a good look.

It's also worth bearing in mind that male average life expectancy in Brazil is only 71.4 years according to current WHO profile compared to 79.5 in the U.K. in 2017. But Brazil is a hugely dangerous country to be a prostitute or gay too. And their murder rates dwarf ours for everyone. 13 women killed every single day.

Datun

Just to clear this up, I am a female woman, assigned female at birth, with boobs and a womb, no penis (nor have I ever had a penis). My partner is also a female woman, assigned female at birth, with boobs and a womb, and no penis (nor has she ever had one). We have four kids.

Sophocles

I don't believe in factions (I think these things are much less well organised and nuanced than that) but when I mentioned the anti-trans faction above I would include FPFW, AWP etc and to some extent this corner of MN

I would question whether in general the killings of prostitutes who are NOT transgender gets significant publicity.

The murder rate for US prostitutes (mostly female) is 20 times the national average. That's based on figures in the 90s I think but I doubt it's come down much.

One of the biggest critiques I've seen of the anti-trans 'faction' is that you very rarely engage with the issues surrounding trans men. What say you to this?

What is this "anti trans" faction that you would like to question, spanna?

The vast majority of people here are pro-woman.

It's not the same thing. Still, do let us know how you get on when you find this anti trans faction and grill them.

Speaking from a pro-woman stance, I can tell you that the reason that trans men don't feature much in my activism around sex self- ID is that I don't feel that transmen are trying to obliterate the meaning of the words I use to describe myself, co-opt women only spaces or threaten me with violence. So I am happy to live and let live there.

This thread, spannablue, is about whether or not male offending patterns continue through transition into the MTF trans population.

I understand you want to deflect from this topic because all the evidence we have suggests that it does and the insistence of Stonewall on shunting non-dysphoric cross dressers into the MTF trans population makes it worse.

I've responded to your attempted derailments - AUSTERITY! WOMEN SPENDING THEIR MONEY WRONG! WHAT ABOUT TRANS MEN (WHO AREN'T MALE SO NOT TOPICAL TO MALE PATTERN OFFENDING)! - once and I won't be doing it again.

I repeat: this thread is about whether or not male offending patterns continue through transition into the MTF trans population. Do you have anything substantive to say about that?

When not what

spannablue

What you say you're a woman, can you clarify? Are you trans?

*Imagine buses emblazoned with 'Tory austerity politics hit women hardest'!

WTF has that got to do with male pattern violence and sexual violence and how it expresses - or doesn't express - itself within the MTF trans population?*

Because male violence happens within a misogynistic cultural context which has recently both leveraged and been exacerbated by austerity policies

And WTF do you get off telling women how to spend their money?

I am a woman. I am not 'telling' women- we women are discussing it amongst ourselves.

I think the trans lobby should spend more of its government and corporate third sector funding campaigning on austerity that affects women. Why are they spending it all on political propaganda instead?

Whatever 'the trans lobby' is. The organisations I know (Mermaids, Gendered Intelligence, GIRES, TransMediaWatch, Stonewall, etc) all have different foci. Some focus on supporting people with family relationships, mental wellbeing, physical health, etc; others on developing best practice and research in health and education; others on lobbying for human rights.

Don't they care about women even though they call themselves women?
Not all transgender people are women. One of the biggest critiques I've seen of the anti-trans 'faction' is that you very rarely engage with the issues surrounding trans men. What say you to this?

[The only thing I have seen on this relates to concerns about improper use of binders. I think that if kids are going to do this anyway then they need to at least have access to best practice for safe use of binders].

I don’t think anyone believes transgender people can’t be criminals. But that doesn’t make most of them criminals. How do you want transgender women to be identified?

Incidentally, and while this is horribly offtopic to the original post here which is specifically about the UK, there's a recent serial killer who killed four prostitutes in Texas.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/16/serial-killer-us-border-patrol-agent-charged-murder-four-women

One was transgender.

Why did he kill them? Because they were prostitutes (and all Hispanic).

Was the killing of the transwoman motivated by transphobia. It would not appear so. Although this case got lots of publicity because of the serial killing aspect, I would question whether in general the killings of prostitutes who are NOT transgender gets significant publicity.