Is the silencing and ridicule of older women necessary to keep women in their place?

Is MN a woman- only space?

"The barrier of mistrust, stereotyping and misogyny separating women dissolves with an absence of men."

How does that square with the huge amount of casual ageism on MN?

Yes a lot of young women are oblivious to the spike in their social status coinciding with their age-based fuckability rank and innocently belive that they have 'choices', 'agency', 'merit' etc....

In my 20s I honestly couldn’t see what older women were complaining about. I was able to study a male dominated subject and participate in male dominated sports (albeit with a disproportionate number of lesbian teammates) and I really didn’t feel my sex would ever hold me back. I experienced everyday harassment but never any really scary sexual assault.
I resented feminists casting me in role of a victim (how I saw it).

I only realise now how my experience was narrow and privileged.

I think this is a huge incentive for retaining women-only spaces/women-only organising. The barrier of mistrust, stereotyping and misogyny separating women dissolves with an absence of men.

I've noticed this too, in the political party I used to be in. Older and younger women would communicate only where necessary, and rarely socially. It was seen as a bit odd to be friends with someone from a different generation. With the men, it was more of a spectrum of different ages together.

Fair point. (Hadn't thought about the older women in fairly stories in this context).

Ideally I want to respect people for what they know and who they are and learn from those who can teach me something, young or old, male or female.

Mirai
Not that it excuses young women - but it sounds to me that the males are more secure in themselves, confident that they'll be taken seriously, etc- the kind of confidence you only generally have if you are born with a penis and have male socialisation.

I see what you are saying as being the different side of that same coin of what an earlier poster said about older women being the problem.

It just comes down to the fact that there is nothing flattering or edifying about being from the oppressed class rather than the oppressor class. Divide and conquer is easy - young women chucking older women under a bus to win the approval of the males (the oppressor class) and older women chucking younger women under the bus for the same reason.

It comes back to the OP and I agree with it - that mistrust between women of different ages is deliberately seeded* to prevent unity.

*This kind of thing again goes way back doesn't it? Making the 'marrying maiden' leave home and join the inlaws and disrupting mother-daughter transference of wisdom and power - every fairytale having a wicked older women wanting to ruin the beautiful and youthful heroine, the ridiculing of older women, sexualising and infantalising the young and female...

I find it isn't men but younger women who silence me. That is what is really sad.

The men I work with respect me for my skill, knowledge and experience. They trust me and are not frightened of me. They know they won't be misunderstood.

Many of the younger women seem to want to patronise me. They want to show how much better they are than me; prettier, more in tune with the modern world. They are waiting for me to say something racist/sexist/politically incorrect or to use a word that is no longer "acceptable" or "appropriate" - just as their own words won't be in ten years time!!

Dying for me to make a comment that shows how crap my marriage was or how outdated my views are. They love to say "it's not the 19 bloody 50s any more" whilst understanding nothing either of my age or the 1950s!

Why I don't know - it certainly isn't everywhere by any means. I have daughters and many friends and colleagues of all ages - but when the silencing comes that is where I see it coming from.

So how do we address that? I don't know, I really don't. But is good to see it raised as an issue.

Older women with brilliant minds are the enemy of Patriarchy. They have memories, know all the tricks, see all the patterns, aren't afraid of coming across as unfuckable by saying what they think and doing what they want, and they will not be compromised. They are going to save the world in my opinion.

It is essential for the maintenance of Patriarchy to stereotype, silence, isolate and scapegoat brilliant older women (the crone, witch, hag, etc) to limit their awesome power and influence. Absolutely nothing new there. Germaine Greer is just another in a very long line...

I recently watched a YouTube clip of Germaine Greer in the 70's. She spoke with her usual razor sharp wit, concise, direct and clear. She quickly tore a twat of a mysogynist man up when he tried to outwit her much to the delight of the women and men around her. She was also, literally quite striking to look at.

I still happen to think she's striking and amazingly well spoken (in particular her BBC interview which makes me smile no matter how many times I watch it -"oh fucking hell, I'm getting tired of this"). I. Any link, am rubbish on phones.

She's not viewed the same by the general public now though and it's classic ageism. She has a progressive mind and is still influencing me and god knows how many others, but I almost see an eye-roll when I try and discuss it with others (I've stopped now, I get too angry).

Horrible culture. My closest circle of friends have 2 women much older than me. My MIL is 92 and I'd do anything for that woman and not out of duty but sheer respect. She singlehandedly raised 2 sons, ran a grocery business and campaigned for women's rights, overcame mental illness, still shops for herself, can politely debate most topics (and win) and has the most amazing sense of humour and a cackle that will make most people turn and grin. The only thing I'm hating about her age is that I don't have that much time left with her.

I agree re the stereotyping. I was terrified of getting older and being ignored but as I say I have been surprised by the opposite happening. Can't say I was particularly prepared for it though and it is all a bit weird because of the stereotype we are discussing here.

I am also grateful for the women who are older than me forging the way - I meet many women in their 50's and 60's in good powerful positions, I am sure it was harder for them to not be ignored (and there are still more men of course but at least there are some women)

But as I said before, I am 'easy' - white, middle class, educated. I am very sure it is not so easy for all women, and I do think I am benefiting from privilege in that sense. And I never thought I would say that!

Capitalism probably has more to answer for this ignored feeling rather than direct sexism imo. We are based worthy on our economic contribution?

Bertrand I haven't seen it - I'll look out for it.

Mooncup and Quentin It's good to hear a range of experiences, perhaps? It tells us what we know: old and older women shouldn't be stereotyped (which is what 'silencing' does: it allows other people to write a narrow representation of us) - and is part of what is so annoying when people start telling us 'about' old and older women. Maybe?

Does anyone watch a news programme called Beyond 100 Days? The presenters are an older woman and a younger man and she is most definitely the lead. Great programme by the way......

Karate The absence of a multiplicity of embedded cultural narratives about women's lives (and that's lives, rather than 'points in life',) is one effect of cultural sidelining/silencing, and one reason it feels so often as though we reinvent the wheel again and again and again.

In a way, all of us have to begin from subjective experience, then cast around for whatever we can find (including other women on mumsnet) to try and make a world, rather than a single story.

Mooncuplanding "But I wonder if this is not a sex thing, for the reasons we are saying. I'm not sure there is much respect/time given for a man who hasn't worked either."

I wonder this, too. It leads me to think about the anger many men now have at finding they a. suddenly don't have an automatic entitlement to be heard just because they are men, b. have to sometimes listen to women - and older women at that, and c. why it still takes women about 10 years longer to achieve the credit/status that an equivalent man gets.

Very interesting that you have brought insight and reflection (on the subjects of gender, sex, and privilege,) on your journey with you.

Yep, sorry Bert. Or possibly focusing on people I know. It's recently been on my mind and worrying me. So my opinion is pretty subjective right now on this.

I wouldn't say I wanted some recognition for 'achievements' here just that I have been very surprised that I am suddenly taken more seriously after years of disadvantage.

I actually feel guilty for it, truth be known. It gives me a real insight to how privilege works...I'm viewed as a white educated middle class women (a safe option for diversity) and I certainly can see I have an advantage over black women for example, and it doesn't feel too good.

"Completely and utterly limiting and forced us into the invisible older lady once the kids leave home and we're left with a narrow world to live in."
Gosh. Are you, perhaps, generalizing a bit?

Jesus no mooncup! I'm impressed by your achievements.

I may change my name to KarlosKKrinkelkrone
Has a certain ring to it I feel

I'm not sure if that's a dig karate, but I'll presume not.

I've lived a rad fem life, that's true, where I've never relied on a man, put a value on my potential to earn even when having children, yes, but that doesn't mean I haven't suffered sexism.

What has been interesting is that ONLY now I'm older have I been getting opportunities that men got years ago.

I understand that women have made different choices and are viewed differently. Guess I saw that coming somehow and always maintained autonomy and I have probably pissed off a few women who I've encouraged not to give up their jobs for men.

But I wonder if this is not a sex thing, for the reasons we are saying. I'm not sure there is much respect/time given for a man who hasn't worked either.