Is the silencing and ridicule of older women necessary to keep women in their place?

I suppose I went to a woman only school as did my daughters so that was women only. Nothing much else in my life is particularly divided by any rule about gender but then I have just been a feminist rather than attended meetings or talks on the topic.

We are seeing a lot of criticism of older people at present which I don't think is very helpful. Pitting people against each other rarely does much good.

Older people often do have a bit of experience and can have a bit more life knowledge than younger people but we can all learn from each other. I have gone out of my way by the way to take the less easy route of doing the more active stressful things and aspects of my work like pubilc speaking, going on radio etc because so many more men seem to do it than women in my field and I want to right the balance a bit.

Yes, consciously 'women only' now seems confined to religious conservatives (which manage to escape MRAs/TRAs targeting as far as I can see) and radical feminists - who get the hate full force.

I remember being genuinely scared of going to a women-only feminist group and really wanted to bring a male with me (I was part of the 'I get on better with men' brigade)... I wonder why I was genuinely scared of women? What misogynist assumptions filled my head?

Anyway it was fairly transformative to just see how capable, brilliant, interesting, knowledgeable and accepting, yet incisive they were - knocked a load of my stereotypes on the head!

Mums is predominately female but not predominately women my age (over 50) and that's fine with me. I like women (and men) of all ages.

Older women have often been ridiculed in history - the wicked witch living on her own burned at the stake. Some men think women's purpose is to please them sexually so once women do not have that use they ignore them (not all men by any means of course0. Some men feel threatened by older women. I think it's getting a lot better. We are getting more and more visible older women in all kinds of career sectors but we certainly have to be on the watch to ensure we do not dismiss older women who may have things to say that are worth hearing.

Guardian, on this "I mean deliberately and consciously excluding males to be 'women-only" I just never experience that in my life. Just about everything I do work wise and in terms of hobbies and family never excludes a man. I see a lot more exclusion of women than of men although even there not necessarily because rules prohibit women. If you look at the daily lives of most men and women which is getting up, doing chores, seeing to children, school run, work, home repeast and at weekends TV, the park etc there are not a whole raft of "women" or "men" only things going on.

male idiots are treated much more leniently than female idiots, and that some older women are treated as idiots when they are very far from it.

It's double standards, but also serves to stop younger women benefiting from the experiences and wisdom of older women.

^^
This

Trojan

Agreeing with a trans-inclusionary approach is a perfectly respectable point of view.

It is different from women-only and doesn't have the benefits for women of women-only.

Characterising those who support inclusion as 'fawning over transwomen' is also a form of arrogance.

I didn't characterise anyone as anything, or mean anything other than - fawning over males including transwomen, is fawning over males including transwomen - which I have witnessed. This behaviour is a symptom of female socialisation rather than any political beliefs in my opinion.

MN doesn't really do worthwhile debate anymore, it's a series of echo chambers and people hiding the stuff they don't agree with.

I don't really know what you mean or where you are heading with this.

I think it's funny that one one hand you get posters saying how important the predominantly female space of MN is, and how it attracts trolls because it's so threatening
I'd agree that a gathering of unabashed female intelligence is extremely threatening.
whilst on this thread isn't been described as not having enough female posters for it to be valid to point out that ageism regularly encountered.
I don't really get what you are saying. Mumsnet is not women-only so it does not benefit from all of the benefits of women-only.

Depends what you mean
I mean deliberately and consciously excluding males to be 'women-only' (although men who get how this is important can be supportive of it), which does not include the school gates, mumsnet, etc, obviously.

I would really love some older women friends in real life who can pass on their life experience (I'm 29).

I had a successful 20's in terms of work/being taken seriously. But I'm starting to notice just how screwed women are as they get older and start to have children.

I just had my first baby and have been made redundant on maternity leave and am having a bit of an identity crisis. In the words of Jenny Grogan in Marley and me: 'I've given up so much of what used to make me me (by becoming a mother) but I'm a terrible person if I say that, but I really feel it sometimes'

Anyway I hope that's not too derailing!

Society doesn't value women, but younger women are easier to control.

Yes although it does depend on your career etc. I get listened to an awful lot because of seniority in work, expertise, experience etc. However that is not the case for many women my age.

I don't do generational conflict. I find good things and wise things said by younger and older women.

We certainly need to fight very hard to keep women in positions of power and move more into those roles in all spheres.

I am not personally silenced or ridiculed but a lot of women are.

Do you feel the same about groups of men or just women?

Both really. It's just how people are in my experience.
Taking men out of the equation hasn't (in my experience) led to a utopia of wonderful women. Some are, plenty aren't.

What about all the older thick women? Not everyone past 50 is worth listening to, what about those who perpetuate gender stereotypes? Who castigate those who transgress them.

There are a lot of twats out there, they too age.

quentin I couldn't read to the end of that piece it made me so angry. That little brat needs an almighty foot up her arse. And I'm 33 years younger than Germaine, so a different generation and have had many arguments with second wave feminists about all sorts of things, we aren't a homogenous borg-mind. But jesus, have a bit of fucking respect

Depends what you mean. Self-selecting "women only" groups tend to be formed by like minded people who are very supportive and pleasant spaces.
General groups of women, although not designated women-only, such as school gate groups, "mums" groups, even mumsnet, can be judgemental, nasty and pretty much everything else.

deydododatdodontdeydo
Done a lot of women-only stuff?

"The barrier of mistrust, stereotyping and misogyny separating women dissolves with an absence of men."

Actual lol.
If only.

I am perfectly happy to include transwoman in society generally, just not in women only spaces, scholarships or sports TrojanWhore

Male violence won't be solved by giving any man who fancies it access to those spaces under 'self identification'.

Agreeing with a trans-inclusionary approach is a perfectly respectable point of view.

Characterising those who support inclusion as 'fawning over transwomen' is also a form of arrogance.

MN doesn't really do worthwhile debate anymore, it's a series of echo chambers and people hiding the stuff they don't agree with.

I think it's funny that one one hand you get posters saying how important the predominantly female space of MN is, and how it attracts trolls because it's so threatening; whilst on this thread isn't been described as not having enough female posters for it to be valid to point out that ageism regularly encountered.

That's good news Flavia

Yy BlackForestCake it takes a special kind of arrogance for that!

Loads of male (incl. Transwomen) posters here and fawning over them.

Not in FWR anyway and I've noticed fewer and fewer cries of 'transphobic' on the other boards.

There is very little about MN that functions like an actual woman-only space. Loads of male (incl. Transwomen) posters here and fawning over them.
In a woman-only space women are confronted by our own received misogynist stereotyping that put us off getting to know one-another in a mixed space.

No, of course MN is not women only.

But it's a predominantly female set of posters, and ageism is rife (there have been several previous threads on this). Not necessarily mistreatment, more an unacceptable level of ingrained (casual) ageism.

Imagine being an arrogant little student so far up your own arse that you think that you get to decide whether Germaine fucking Greer is a good enough feminist. Jeez.

MrsDoylesTeabags

Yes! I remember that programme. I think the (younger) man was saying something along the lines of ‘but wouldn’t she leave him if he was abusive’ and the (older) woman - I think she was a social worker or teacher(?) - said something like it’s not that simple. I remember pointing it out to dh at the time.

Additionally - I have not really witnessed people being mistreated on the basis of their age within the forum - especially since I don't know how old anyone is and people namechange all the time.