The UK is officially an intolerant hellhole for transwomen

The other interesting thing here is that male sex drive / desire etc is fairly stable over the years, it starts high and then just slows doen very gradually when he's old.

With women it's very different. Our menstrual cycles make many of us hornier at some times of the month than others. First trimester of pregnancy is often a no thanks and many women go mad for it second trimester. Breastfeeding has a well recorded tendancy to reduce libido. Then we have the upheaval of the menopause. There's also recent research which shows that male sex drive in a relationship stays much the same, for women it nosedives after a couple of years. We also seem to be (nature / nurture?) far more likely to look for more than a quick fuck.

Altogether, this whole thing, the whole movement seems like it takes a very masculine experience / view of sex - and ignores the much wider variety in women's experience - which is all perfectly standard and normal - and says no that's a bit different - you need a special word for that.

So at the heart of the whole thing is a story which ignores female sexuality and takes a hypermasculine view of sex as the norm. So much for progressive.

There was a reason for my question yesterday I only just got back to the thread - thank you Loops for answering.

Looking at the comments around this:
"Porn culture has such a stranglehold (sadly often quite literally) on dating behaviour and wider culture that one has to have an "excuse" - "I'm demisexual", "I'm a transman" - to gain "permission" to opt out of pornified behaviour."

And - yes - reading all about the definitions around demisexual aromantic and all of the rest of it - that many posters identified as being well within the range of normal behaviour / ways of feeling and therefore why do we need all these labels.

The whole thing strikes me as having a starting point in line with not just a pornified approach but the stereotypical masculine attitude to sex (which is of course the one reflected in most porn) - and of course this is what people were getting at.

And it's shown up by this response - because if these labels were about describing the variations and range of human sexual and romantic behaviours there would be a term for "bang up for it all the time". The fact that there is not, sets this as the norm against which the other behaviours are measures.

So again we have the "norm" being default male - in this case stereotypical masculine sexual behaviour - as catered to in most porn where of course all the men are up for it all the time with whoever crosses their path and catches their eye and of course in this story the women are too.

The fact that there is no term for this - and that sets it as the standard and norm - proves to me that these labels are as observed by so many a way for people - especially women - to excuse themselves from sex when they don't want sex or they don't want sex with whoever.

Oh sorry I'm grey sexual and aromantic is a good way of saying no iss off I don't want to fuck you and I'm not interested in getting to know you better either ta. It's a "polite" way for women to try to reject men in a new roundabout way and thus try to avoid the sodding awful behaviour you can get from men and boys you reject.

So it all makes sense really.

But to claim these identities as axes of oppression are ridiculous. Graysexual people, aromantic people, are simply not being wholesale refused access to services and sacked from their jobs. To put it in the same group as gay people, bisexual people when partnered with a same sex partner, these people have been and around the world still are being forcibly married, arrested, executed, attacked on the street, murdered.

Anyway this was the answer that pointed to "horny porn man" as being the current norm against which all other sexual behaviour is measures:

"Queen I don't think so? Desiring a lot of sex doesn't seem to be an orientation because it's expression of your attraction rather than what your attraction is. But I might be wrong".

There are words for not wanting it ever, wanting it with certain types of people, under certain conditions. Words for wanting sex sometimes but not others (surely most people) etc but no word for always up for it.

I second that, Datun. 😄

Nans are brilliant. There's none so strange as folk, just about covers it in my opinion.

To me Loops, you seem to be conflating marginalization with oppression/discrimination.

I'm sure that asexuality is probably little understood by wider society and not discussed as a relatively common phenomenon but to say people are oppressed because they are asexual is a hefty claim and not one I can see being backed up with evidence. And that's not to say that there may be some inappropriate and rude behaviour directed towards people who are perceived as non-sexual, my brother has never had a relationship, romantic or sexual, is not bothered about having one either and has, on occasion, had some horrible names thrown his way by certain individuals because of his lack of sexual interest, but has never not got a job, or a house, or been assaulted, or imprisoned or denied relevant healthcare etc because of it.

Oppression is more than just some twat not getting that people are different and "it takes all sorts", as my nan used to say.

I saw that earlier and the OP seemed entirely unaware of the concept of pheromones!

I don't need to be in love to want to have sex with a man. But there is no magic formula for who I fancy. It's all undefinable chemistry.

Yy - see the thread running over on Chat right now about being turned on by someone just because of how they smell

I prefer the fantasy to the reality and sex is a lot of hassle and I live in the U.K. and it's cold and I don't like taking my jumper off.

Very Victoria Wood (which is, of course, a Good Thing)

I prefer the fantasy to the reality and sex is a lot of hassle and I live in the U.K. and it's cold and I don't like taking my jumper off.

That made me laugh out loud!

Oh god no of course not, it's ridiculous.
But I think the variations are down to personality and conditioning and not because you're a man or a woman (though obviously the sexes are conditioned differently)

And yes I agree that it's individual. But that's what personality means. It doesn't need to be a specific gender or orientation.

I don't need to be in love to want to have sex with a man. But there is no magic formula for who I fancy. It's all undefinable chemistry.

Is it not different for each man and woman though?

My husband is very led by his emotions, he doesnt have sex unless he's in love and I've never known him to fancy someone just in their looks (and believe me he'd tell me), he doesn't have a looks type but he definitely has a personality type, he likes strong loud women women with large personalities.
I on the other hand definitely go for looks, I have a very set physical type and to be honest if someone fits that I could shag them and not even like them as a person that much.
I definitely pass men on the street and think 'phwoaw I really fancy you' but in reality even if I was single I probably wouldn't do anything because I prefer the fantasy to the reality and sex is a lot of hassle and I live in the U.K. and it's cold and I don't like taking my jumper off.

I feel the same Datun. I don't have a physical type. We should have a sexual orientation! Perhaps there is one!

I'm not sure sexual attraction is something that many women experience in same way that men do. I don't look at men in the street I think cor I want to rip your clothes off and lick you all over. Although I can admire them, in a way that is looks based. But it doesn't actually turn me on.

Obviously, there have been times where I want nothing more than sex with a particular person, and I get turned on thinking about it. But it's far less to do with the way they look. It's about the way they make me feel.

you don't have to care about everything all the time, that would actually be exhausting.

Hahahaha. Just dawned on me how amusingly contradictory this is.

You sound as if Home and Away has had a defining influence on you.

Personally I was a Neighbours kid. Dinner after neighbours, while watching Star Trek:The Next Generation. Home and Away always clashed with something better on CBBC.

Asexuality is not 'not having sex' it is not experiencing sexual attraction, asexual people can have libido and this can be low or high just like anyone else. You can want sex, without being sexually attracted to someone (or so I've heard lol I'm a don't-want-sex ace)

Errr, Wah? This is getting really rarified.

So, you can want sex, but not be attracted to anyone, and that isn't because you don't find anyone you've met attractive, but because you will never find anyone attractive?

and then you can be 'X romantic', so you find someone attractive, and you want to have sex, but you don't find anyone sexually attractive.

I mean, well, err, OK, but I really think you're tying yourself in knots and making life very difficult for yourself.

I mean, I have young kids, and don't have a lot of sex with dp. I've had both relationships and flings in the past (not one night stands, I do need to actually have some inkling of a person before I have sex - so that's... err. demi-sexual, hetero-romantic?) - frankly, this is all madness. Have as much or as little sex as you want. Have relationships, don't have relationships, have sex, don't have sex (take care if you do cos STD and pregnancy) - I don't really see the need to come out about it though - just live, why on earth dwell on it so much?

it's fine as long as you don't think that's how the world really works.

What if it is how the world really works?

I've been sexually assaulted several times and faced issues in furthering my career because I'm a woman - in the UK. Can I go elsewhere and claim asylum if some kind? FFS.

@SentimentalLentil - what happened to you and your mum is exactly why I get so pissed off with identity politics. Gay/bi people get actual real abuse when they're in a relationship.

I'm not in a relationship with anyone and haven't been for years but I don't get any abuse for it. It's never occurred to me that it might be damaging to my career to not have married and I was unaware that people weren't taking me seriously. I find that quite shocking.

I don't really care who people fuck or don't but this endless dissection and navel-gazing is unbearably tedious. And people who are in long-term heterosexual relationships 'coming out' as non-binary really boil my piss. They are co-opting other people's oppression and I can't believe they don't get called out on it.

Right, I've made it.
Read through the whole thread.

First of all, well done Loops you managed to stick in there and it was fun.

I do think that you're being ridiculous though, all the 'opression' you mentioned that asexual get are not opressions at all for asexuality and more irritations that happen when you don't subscribe to societies perceived norms (especially women).
Everyone seems so desperate to get you paired off and have a baby.
When you were discussing what you went through when you came out I was nodding my head because I had the EXACT same reaction when I said me and DH didn't want a baby. DH obviously doesn't get it as bad as me because I'm a woman and as a woman that's what my point in society is, and how I dare I stand there with my pointless empty womb and say that I wanted to deny society of its rightful fruit.
I would think that you probably do get passed on for promotions etc if you are single, I have lots of single friends say they've thought about wearing wedding rings to work because they don't feel like they are taken seriously, and from my experience when I started wearing a wedding ring the way I was treat did change.
This has bog all to do with assexuality though and is to do with the patriarchy and societies ideas of what a woman is for.

I literally can't believe that people are piggybacking the struggle of gay people with this shit!

You have been very reasonable Loops and I have so enjoyed reading your comments but I just can't agree with you.

My Mam is bisexual, she lived with a woman for my entire childhood, we got horrendous homophobic bullying, we had bricks through our window, spray paint on our door, gangs of kids coming into our garden and shouting through the letterbox, fireworks put through our windows, it was horrendous. Eventually the council had to move us.
Now my Mam is with a man and she gets no abuse whatsoever, she's still bisexual but she no longer faces the social stigma of being homosexual because that's not how society views her. Oppression isn't about feels it's about how society views you, you can't be oppressed in a vacuum.
I'm not saying bisexuals don't have their own battles and difficulties but a woman in a straight marraige can't claim to have all the day to day challenges of being in a homosexual relationship, it's just not true.
We can't just wear the coat of someone else's struggle because we feels like it.
I blame identity politics.

DJ I mean, sometimes I just watch stuff because it's silly or it makes me laugh, you don't have to care about everything all the time, that would actually be exhausting. I watch a lot of stuff that isn't really very good, or is #problematic, it's fine as long as you don't think that's how the world really works. Just relax.

but isn't that the case with so much media, I just can't be that mad about every random tv show or movie, I'd never go out or enjoy anything. There's so little Queer representation too, or representation of neurodivergence, but again it's just too much to get upset about. It's exhausting

Oh come on, you cant be serious. Of course Neighbours is that bad. Its not exhausting to not buy into it.

Good lord, this has been a fascinatingly weird read. All these labels for human attraction and shagging or not shagging.

I did find the idea that these labels are a kind of withdrawing from the pornification of modern sex quite intriguing though.

Thanks for discussing loops. Like a lot if others I find it all very navel gazey as surely nobody cares who people love, live with ie shag so long as its legal and with consent.

Butter but isn't that the case with so much media, I just can't be that mad about every random tv show or movie, I'd never go out or enjoy anything. There's so little Queer representation too, or representation of neurodivergence, but again it's just too much to get upset about. It's exhausting.