The UK is officially an intolerant hellhole for transwomen

Can I just say first and foremost, loop doesn't speak on behalf of our generation. I'm 24 and do not know of a single person, friend or otherwise, that subscribes to this nonsense. So loop, if you could stop making out that this is a generational issue, that would be really great.

Also, it's great to find women who feel the same way I do. Much love wimms

a group of asexual, teetotal, female vegans might well turn down a heterosexual, male, beer drinking carnivore as a flat mate.

We'd miss out on a 1970s sitcom there though.

I wondered why I was persisting in reading such a long thread, but I had a feeling that it would get pay off. It didn't let me down. The highlight for me was expecting non-brainwashed people to accept that the term asexual includes people who, when their libido strikes, will have sex but are not that bothered with it being with a particular person. The identity (ie personality) being described is "non-picky" rather than asexual.

The other bonus was the very interesting comments at the end of the thread about labels being used as a sanctuary in a pornified culture.

The one common feature I see in this brave new world of identity is nothing is supposed to mean anything any more except to the person expressing the inexplicable.

My trans friend doesn't leave his house in NZ due to getting shouted at on the street. The abuse is far harsher than here.

QueenOfTheSardines

That analysis is spot on. I was struck, when I read about the 71 different genders, quite how many of them were to do with sex. Who to have it with, when, and why. People having to justify, as you say, not occupying the default male position.

Interestingly, this thread has untangled some of the meanings behind these different gender identities. You have to wonder why so many people want to adopt them. Yes, some of them are snowflakes, but they can’t all be. So a very useful explanation.

In terms of oppression. People are confusing someone not understanding them, or not liking them, or having a negative reaction to them with oppression.

My understanding of oppression is that, apart from being class based, not based on an individual, it requires material gain for the oppressor.

There is no material gain to be had from oppressing people because of their sexual appetite, or because of their transgender status. They might faced discrimination, but not oppression. Although I agree, in terms of the 71 different genders, it’s not something that anybody would know about, unless you told them.

And yes I’m grateful to loops too. It’s still a little frustrating to see gender so centred, but at least now I understand some of the reasons why. And she has been incredibly patient.

What an excellent analysis Queen. I hope Loop comes back and responds to it.

I do like children but work with pregnant women and babies and I see how much hard work they are, I think I like a sit down too much

Ah ok. Snip not the best plan then
Children are lush though, but I have three and would have more if I wasn't crap at giving birth so I am a bit biased

I've not started with babies.
I'm 30 and pretty sure I don't want one but you never know

Brilliant posts queens
lentil are you done with babies? The snip is awesome. Although I give men whining about how traumatic it is short shrift. They are happy enough for us to get our cervices clamped open for a coil with no comment

God id love that but we're too young.

I'll bet! Must be lovely not to have to worry / mess around with condoms / have hormones etc.

The best contraception in terms of upping my libido, TBH, was when my DH had the snip!

Prickly yes this intent on denying sex based oppression is really, just pissing me off to be honest. All the women doing it too. People seem to have lost all their powers of rational thinking.

Sentimental yes I agree - hormonal contraception & how it's handed out so easily to girls with very little caution is a big feminist issue.

The pill has been a massive double edged sword for us - of course the ability to control our fertility this way and without relying on a man doing something is probably the single-handed biggest advance for women and gives us control. But, it's not without side effects, which are not cared about, even though they are big (the recent research about mental health problems shows this up). The idea of pushing hormones into girls - and well to be honest I went and got the pill for myself at 16 so no pushing - but before we are grown and know who we are, when it's so hard to tell if any changes to mood etc are because of that or because we're teens and therefore up and down anyway and of course teenage girls are always considered to be "hormonal" so when they get depressed no-ones looking at the pill and there's no baseline for her to tell. It seems society will take any risk with girls health to avoid them getting pregnant - and of course as you say the pill suppresses libido for many which is a really grotesque side effect because then it shows up who her being on the pill is for - it's not for her - if it was this side effect would mean loads of girls wouldn't take it as why bother as you don't want sex any more so you don't have sex... But of course that's not how it works.

Awful.

Just adding thanks to Loop (and the rest of you) interesting thread.

Queen - that's a really interesting summary, that I think bears a lot of truth

Loop - I don't think I said it upthread, but thank you for sticking around and answering the various questions thrown your way. Posters often come onto FWR and post a couple of times then disappear off into the ether, so it's genuinely gratifying when people are prepared to discuss / argue / defend different views. (But I preferred Neighbours to Home & Away - possibly because my mum is a TV snob and thinks that anything on the Beeb is automatically better than anything on "the commercial channels")

My friend refers to that phenomenon as 'grief thiefs'

It really takes a special sort of narcissistic arsehole to react in that way, doesn't it?

Yes.

I know. But me me me me me!

"Yes. Just seen some "non binary" women on Facebook whining about saying how exclusionary the #metoo hashtag is because they're not women"

It really takes a special sort of narcissistic arsehole to react in that way, doesn't it?

Whaaaaaaat?
But I've seen loads of posters have been including trans in their definition, the one going round my Facebook is 'woman, trans or self identified woman' I've even seen a couple of 'people' too.

And I think that claiming greysexual, demisexual, aromantic etc. as axes of oppression is to ignore the fact that the oppression you're on the receiving end of - namely the threat of male sexual violence - is not because you're greysexual etc. etc., but because you're female. The oppression that comes with being threatened with sexual violence is the near universal experience of being female!

Yes. Just seen some "non binary" women on Facebook whining about saying how exclusionary the #metoo hashtag is because they're not women

Very interesting sardines!

Also hormonal contraception effects women's labido loads. I have been on hormonal contraception since I was 15 that's half my life, I have literally no idea what my normal sex drive is.

Thanks Queen - that was indeed what I was getting at. How did we get to a situation where "pornhound" was seen as the norm against which the rest of us (which in my experience includes the majority of men as well as most women) are measured and found wanting?

And I think that claiming greysexual, demisexual, aromantic etc. as axes of oppression is to ignore the fact that the oppression you're on the receiving end of - namely the threat of male sexual violence - is not because you're greysexual etc. etc., but because you're female. The oppression that comes with being threatened with sexual violence is the near universal experience of being female! Female with high libido, female with low libido. Female who likes consensual sex within a meaningful emotional relationship, female who likes casual sex. Female who mentally goes "phwoarr" when a good looking man (or woman) catches her eye, female who rarely (or never) finds herself attracted to people. We are all of us threatened with male sexual violence.