The UK is officially an intolerant hellhole for transwomen

It's odd, isn't it lass? What motivates women to have sex.

'Traditional' good looks has never been part of my criteria. It's not something I've consciously decided, it just doesn't count. Doesn't get the juices flowing, as it were.

I'm not saying appearance doesn't count, because it certainly does. But it would never count on its own.

Datun I think that (admiration/objectification) plays a part definitely. It's also not impossible that all asexual people just haven't met the right person yet, or haven't experienced their sexual awakening yet. However, that would be something for the asexual person to think about themselves, it's not really appropriate to say that to someone...because it's just like saying that to a gay person.

Out of interest though, how do you feel about the 'fluidity' of sexuality? I think that's important to understanding the differing views of labels, cause for young people sexuality is really fluid and so 'labels' are more about defining your experience at the time, than something concrete you can't ever change.

Lass I suppose that would have made you a little bit shallow lol but that's ok haha I also wouldn't put you in a group, because it's not anyone else's place to decide how people should identify.

It's ok loopsdefruit.

It's interesting to have a conversation.

Like prickly, I can't remember many times if any, where I would look at someone and think phwoar.

There, definitely, have been times where my eyes will follow a man, and there is a distinct feeling of something, quite difficult to define actually. But I know what horney feels like, and it's not that. Although, it's obviously related to what they look like. Perhaps that's the difference between men and women? It might be the distinction between admiration and objectification?

you can want to have sex without being sexually attracted to that person
What?  why on earth would you want to have sex with someone you aren't sexually attracted to? Surely that's the worst sex ever?

Oh I can give you an example of that. Back in the day I was someone who was very picky about physical appearance but required no emotional involvement (I've lost track of what particular group Loop would put me in - basically I shagged a lot of pretty men)

I do recall there was a bloke in my halls of residence who was spectacularly physically unattractive and possibly on the autism spectrum. I recall discussing with a (male , heterosexual) friend that I was intrigued by the idea of shagging this bloke. I didn't- mainly because it would probably have been the worst sex ever and my motives were rather unkind.

reeling with shock reading yer(wo)man phil bunce and his promotional info. The balls/ovaries you'd need to foist that on your colleagues. I felt embarrassed tellig the boss I needed maternity leave. I felt embarrassed being pregnant in a city environment.

And if you're really trying to tell me asexual people can have a high libido and want lots of sex, well

When I was dating, I could feel horny, want to have sex, and still not have a reaction to a man's body, that a man might have to mine.

And I don't think that's unusual. You don't tend to see magazines designed for women where they salivate over a man's buttocks, or thighs, or genitals.

However, someone who has a libido, and wants sex, cannot, in my book, convincingly be called asexual.

Datun that's fair, I can't really say how sexual attraction feels...cause I don't experience it. But I'd imagine that when people figure out if they are gay or straight or bi it's because they want to have sex with someone of the same or a different sex/gender. That is what I understand as sexual attraction, when you don't have that, you may be a-spec.

It doesn't matter to me how many other people experience it, or how 'normal' it is, because I don't ID as ace to be special or different, I just am ace. I've talked to enough sexual people to realise that not everyone feels that way, and the language helps us figure out the world and us in it. I also don't mind if someone who I would view as ace based on my own experience doesn't want to ID as such, because their ID being different doesn't mean my ID is wrong.

And intestingly, men too, Datun. Despite the "all men watch porn and think about sex with every man they meet" mythology sometimes pushed by posters on other parts of MN, I have many male friends who are probably what might be called "demisexual".

And of course there are gradations. I personally occasionally see a bloke and just think "phwoarr" on first sight - but it's rare, maybe one in a thousand. I don't default to automatically assessing every man I meet on the basis of "how would he look with his clothes off?" And I think some variation on that is true of all people. Maybe there are people for whom the ratio is one in a hundred, maybe there are those for whom it's one in five, maybe it's even true as a generalisation that overall the ratios may tend to be lower in men than in women (they may typically but not always be closer to the one in five than the one in a thousand end of the spectrum) - but no-one, not even the most dedicated porn-hound, has a one in one ratio.

Again, it was me who mentioned spinsters. I know it's a word that people don't like, neither do I. I was using it in an historical context.

Everyone bangs on about that diet Coke ad. But it's interesting, that it's virtually the only one. Society would like us to believe that women are salivating over plumbers, gardeners, and he-man everywhere, but they're not.

Lass Ok, but what are you struggling with re: reading? A PP (Datun? Maybe, sorry if it wasn't) mentioned "spinsters" I responded using the language in the post, I don't actually call people spinsters? Because IMO it's one of those words that is used to judge women's choices (although I'll admit I don't really know the history of it)

Fortunately I don't care about you either, or how you view my identity. I am lucky to live in the UK, where all Queer people are respected and the government/employers/schools and universities care that people feel accepted, despite gate-keepers on the internet.

loops

prickly has articulated it very well. Also, many, many women do not have what you call a 'sexual attraction'.

They can have good sex, if they have the right buttons pushed. Lots and lots of women do not look at a man and mentally undress them and get hot, thinking about sex.

Only because they were yet another label to assign to someone, back in the day

The operative part being back in the day. Which seems to have escaped Loop's attention.

Honestly, loops, I think we understand what you're trying to say. It's jut that we don't buy into it as an explanatory framework for the world. This stamp-collecting urge to take the normal spectrum of human behaviours and personalities and label it all and pathologise it really strikes me as unhealthy.

And if you're really trying to tell me asexual people can have a high libido and want lots of sex, well, I'm afraid I'm having a bit of an Inigo Montoya moment here: "You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."

you can want to have sex without being sexually attracted to that person.
What? why on earth would you want to have sex with someone you aren't sexually attracted to? Surely that's the worst sex ever?

Demisexual just sounds normal to me.

Flips sake. I'm baffled. Also I think it's offensive to people who are homosexual and aware of the history of people being beaten/murdered/imprisoned/denied jobs to suggest that someone not understanding you is oppression.

BTW, anyone else getting this vibe from loops posts of yet another bright young thing convinced that theirs is the first generation to discover sex,

Yes.

Yes it was me who raised spinsters and bachelors. Only because they were yet another label to assign to someone, back in the day.

prickly again, it has nothing to do with libido. Asexual people can have a high libido and desire sex a bit, a lot, or not at all. It's about the actual experience of sexual attraction. There is no sexual attraction for ace people, although they may have romantic attraction. Demi people have no sexual attraction until they have an emotional connection, although they may have a romantic attraction, then one day they suddenly experience sexual attraction (usually to a SO, but not always).

Loop -I really don't care how many every increasing groups you manage to define your personality into.

I do however find it hilariously ironic that you are getting heated on here about the inability of some of us to take it seriously but can glibly refer to "spinsters"

BTW, anyone else getting this vibe from loops posts of yet another bright young thing convinced that theirs is the first generation to discover sex, and therefore they are in a position to explain slowly and carefully to the dotty old bats and "spinsters" that there can be more to sex than lying back in the missionary position and thinking of England (or Scotland, in mine and Lass's case) ?

loops, we've all been there, done that, got a whole fucking chest of drawers full of the t-shirts. The mismatch when one person went into a sexual encounter just wanting a shag and the other wanted a relationship and now feels used? The mismatched libidos in long term relationships? The person who didn't feel any need to form relationships and pottered through life quite happily with their hobbies and a pet gerbil? The players who only ever shagged around and didn't seem capable of forming meaningful relationships? Yup, it all happened, we just didn't feel the need to "label" all these quite normal forms of human behaviour that have been going on since time immemorial (read Catullus' poems if you don't believe me).

Demisexual people have no sexual attraction to people unless they are emotionally connected to them, it can be the same person, and one day they are sexually attracted.

Again, that's completely normal. It's happened to me! I was very good friends with a chap, who I wouldn't consider, in a million years, having a sexual relationship with. Ended up having great sex with him and dating for over two years.

A friend of mine had a male best friend for years. Everyone thought they should date, she was adamant that that would never be on the cards. They're now married with two children. (And still best friends).

Lass I was literally responding to a previous comment describing spinsters and bachelors

lass I meant that none of us are straight because we're all ace...gay people aren't straight either, not sure what you mean by that? I also don't think straight people are boring lol although some are, cause some people are boring.

doesn't matter how confident or self-assured you are, being told over and over and over again that you're wrong/broken/invalid/stupid is going to have an effect on your mental health,

This is exactly what I mean, loops. If you have a personality trait that you use as an identity, tell people that you have it, and demand that they behave accordingly, you are absolutely going to get people who will react against that.

Expecting people to find a fairly unremarkable aspect of one's personality as important as they do, is going to produce a very natural reaction of people saying why the fuck should I, it's not important to me and if you push it, they will absolutely try and dismantle that, as justification for finding it unimportant.