Horizon programme on transgender

qumquat "I've considered writing to Radio 4's More or Less asking them to look into suicide rates for transgender teens. I doubt they would touch it with a bargepole though."

Brilliant idea. Maybe if you don't tell them what you expect they will find then they may be willing to look into it.

I have no idea what point you're making. Of course no one wants any child or adult to kill themselves. This does not mean I agree with you about the best way to achieve this.

AssassinatedBeauty
Here's that PM:-
^Hi, I'm sorry if I offended you: you asked a couple of perfectly reasonable questions. My jibe was aimed at those who are transphobic, not at people like you who have reasonable concerns about this confusing and frightening subject.

You asked a couple of questions earlier in the thread, but unfortunately I haven't worked out how to link replies to specific posts, so here's what I would have answered if I could:

^Increasingly, people are expressing their gender identity outside of the 'norms'"

This stuck out to me... people have been expressing themselves outside gender "norms" in many ways for many years. Without being trans.^ I think that was a bit of a strange way of putting it, TBH! Women with short hair wearing trousers are pretty normal nowadays. Men wearing skirts and having long hair are a bit more unusual, but aren't necessarily trans. And men who dress up as women for sexual "kicks" are definitely not trans. Medically and legally they are completely different. They are cis-male with a fetish.

So I'm as puzzled by that comment as I think you are (and please believe me ... I do know a bit about this subject!)

If there was, wouldn't all children who present as trans get these brain scans and are identified as definitively trans before being put on a pathway to puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery? Does that happen?
At present, the brain scan test is still in the research stage. It may be useful, at some time in future, though whether it will be 100% reliable is anybody's guess. Right now, though, the best test available is careful assessment by expert psychiatrists. That is what happens when a child is referred to the Tavistock Clinic, or an adult is referred to any of the adult Gender Identity Clinics. It takes many months sometimes years of assessment before the psychiatrists come up with a diagnosis. Blockers are a way of "buying time".

Cross-sex HRT is only prescribed after diagnosis, and surgery (for adults) only after what is called the "Real Life Test", which involves living 24/7 in the "acquired gender". It's probably the RLT that needs most discussion, because it's in the early stages of RLT that the person looks most like their old gender, and has all their old "plumbing" intact. Women who are worried about men invading their safe spaces are understandably worried about this, and transsexuals hate it because they just want to move on with their lives rather than being stuck in limbo. But it's an important safety check to confirm the diagnosis and to make sure that surgical transition is likely to be right for that particular patient. International standards say that the RLT should last a year. In the UK, many psychiatrists insist on two years, with delays in waiting lists both for the first appointment at GIC and for surgery adding anything up to two or three years more.

It's a pathway, not a conveyor belt patients can get off it at any time if they or their clinicians think it is not in their best interests to continue . Many do for all sorts of reasons. And surgery is not an option for children, anyway, but I think it's important to appreciate that if a child really is trans, then the less they have developed beyond puberty, the less painful and more successful their eventual transition is likely to be.

Hope this helps -- happy to discuss it further if you wish.^

AssassinatedBeauty
Is one dead teenager one too many? I think so. I assume you do too. If so, then we agree. What's the problem?

I haven't seen your response to my PM.

But as you don't want PMs, I'll put in public. Maybe you will post your response to it in public as well.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1
I said something along the lines of "40% is widely quoted"
Quentin said that a third of adult and half of kids was "contradictory" to 40%.
TBH, I don't think arguing over a few percentage points, rounding errors or discrepancies between surveys carried out at different times and using different methods makes much difference to the fundamental point, which is that rates of suicide and attempted suicide amongst pre-treatment trans people is several times higher than amongst the general population, and that for those who receive treatment, the rates fall. They are still at higher risk than the general population, probably due to discrimination abuse, and the threat of violence.

This is where the frustration comes in,@StrangeAdventure. I didn't want to take any discussion off-thread into PMs. I'll happily respond to anything posted on the thread.

You've repeated the insinuation again - "if you don't want trans people dead then presumably you agree with me." That's a shutting down technique - agree with me or you're a very bad person.

I have no idea why you think I'm responding to you like a toddler tantrumming. I get that you don't like my response to your PM, but nowhere have I been unpleasant or confrontational.

think the oft repeated but incorrect statement that 40% of trans people will kill themselves

You said 40% ATTEMPT to kill themselves

Quention said that 40% DO NOT kill themselves

Or have I managed to misunderstand both of you

QuentinSummers
About half of young trans people and a third of trans adults attempt suicide. Lets imagine a group of 100 trans people made up of (say) 60 adults and 40 youth.
Half of the 40 youth is 20. A third of the 60 adults is 20. The total is 40 out of 100 = 40%
The figures vary a bit depending on the survey data you consider, and the proportions of adult and youth. But to claim that my sources are "contradictory" is just silly.

You said that "female victims of domestic violence have a hugely elevated risk of Suicide. 30 women a day in this situation attempt Suicide, three women a week succeed in their attempt." I'm not quite sure what it has to do with this discussion, but I don't dispute it, and I am certainly NOT suggesting that domestic violence is a fantasy or that victims of domestic violence should not receive help and sympathy, or that they should be abused or subjected to further violence.

You say "I think the oft repeated but incorrect statement that 40% of trans people will kill themselves..." There is no point continuing this discussion if you deny the facts.

Goodnight. Enjoy the Mumsnet echochamber.

AssassinatedBeauty
I've just wasted an hour of my life composing a detailed PM responding to what I thought were a couple of valid points that you made earlier in this thread... and now I find that you aren't interested in reading what I actually wrote, other than to take isolated sentences out of context in order to push your own agenda.
If you had taken the trouble to look at what I wrote, you would have seen that:-
1: I suggested that even if only one trans teen had committed suicide, that was one too many. If you don't want trans people dead, then presumably you agree with me -- so what are we arguing about?
2: My starting point was to say that this thread was NOT transphobic. I made a couple of fairly mild criticisms of the programme, and provided some links/quotes to unbiassed reference sources such as the NHS and the Parliamentary Select Committee.

As I said (and as my PM to you would have proved) I am quite prepared to respond to measured questions -- even if the honest answer to some of them is "I don't know". But I am not interested in responding to people whose reaction to things they don't want to hear is the on line equivalent of a toddler's tantrum. I will simply walk away from it.

MightyMikey
I'm afraid you may be confusing crossdressers with transsexuals (quite understandably) Early stage transitioning TSs often look very much like crossdressers, many anti-trans organisations promote the idea that there is no difference between CD and TS, and many CDs do fantasise about being TS. That is probably why the CD web forums tend to gloss over the realities. But the TS web forums are far more down to earth: typical posts are about how to cope with the alienation from friends and family, with the physical pain associated with things like electrolysis, with the difficulty of finding size 9 shoes (easy to find 4-inch stillettos in fetish shops -- difficult to find flats or low heels suitable for work!) and coping with the years of waiting for the next stage of the process.
But a mid-life CD is not the same as a TS who has suppressed their transness for 30, 40, 50, or more years. Back in the sixties and seventies, many probably knew that there was "something wrong with them" but couldn't identify what the problem was. Even if they could, few realised that medical transition was a possibility. So they suppressed it. There was no other option. And suppression often involved throwing themselves into excessively macho careers, and trying to do what society expected of them by getting married, etc.

@StrangeAdventure, I'm not personally offended by your post, rather frustrated by it. Neither do I find the subject being discussed to be confusing or frightening.

strange your sources are contradictory. This that you said earlier Pre-surgery suicide rates vary enormously depending on which part of the population you look at, but the most widely-accepted figures are that about 40% for untreated TS is very different to the Government report, which says About half of young trans people and a third of trans adults attempt suicide..

I read earlier that female victims of domestic violence have a hugely elevated risk of Suicide. 30 women a day in this situation attempt Suicide, three women a week succeed in their attempt. Yet this is never talked about in the mainstream press.

I think the oft repeated but incorrect statement that 40% of trans people will kill themselves is scaremongering to vulnerable trans people and emotional blackmail to society at large. Not to mention the risk of suicide contagion.

Getting back to the programme. I did feel it gave a balanced view, showing that some people suffer from dysphoria. Showing the fear of parents for their children also very real and sad to see. No judgement from me when parents are told their child will die without hormones etc and them helping with the transition (even though I feel this is wrong for the child).
Also showing the horrific and graphic surgery.
Most online Trans forums skim over the life altering/limiting effects of SRS. Good to see an honest depiction of this.
It did also show that stereotypes were very strong (from a young age) in convincing people they are trapped in the wrong body. Long hair, pink and barbies doesn't make a girl and wanting to be more assertive and liking science doesn't mean your a boy. Be happy - be your fabulous gender non-conforming self, self acceptance is the healthy way.
FYI a huge section of crossdressers see themselves on a spectrum of Transgender and a lot do eventually go on to socially, ie non surgical, transition in later life. Unsurprisingly after they have a career, marriage and children under their belt. But if they say they're Trans then they are. So a mid life CDer is as Trans as Jazz the passing teen Trans star.
.

Do you genuinely think anyone here wishes anyone dead? Do women frequently make death threats towards transpeople? Chucking that sentence in is like throwing a grenade into the discussion. You are suggesting that people discussing here want transpeople dead. It's absurd.

Your starting point in response to measured, questioning and challenging posts is to make an accusation of transphobia, with no basis or specifics.

AssassinatedBeauty
I'm not quite sure what you mean by the first bit of your post: I am quite happy to discuss the issues, and I think I said in my first post on this thread that I was pleased it was NOT transphobic. I can see a huge difference between being concerned and being transphobic. I can understand many of the concerns that are expressed, and share some of them.
I certainly don't think you are all transphobes. But I do find it distressing that a small minority of mumsnet contributors are working so hard to turn your concerns into fears and your fears into hatred.
As for unless, of course, you subscribe to the view that the only good transsexual is a dead transsexual ... I wish I was joking. I have heard that said in complete seriousness.

@StrangeAdventure honestly, is that how you think it's best to engage with people who have concerns? You accuse them of transphobia, which means that you don't want to hear anything that's being said by anyone. Then your last sentence is a ridiculous jibe that absolutely no one here could ever be said to agree with. How do you expect people to respond to that? Presumably you don't care because you think we're all hateful transphobes.

Here's the Summary of the Parliamentary Select Committee's report. I haven't done anything to it, apart from highlighting one bit that I think might be of particular interest to morningrunner, datun, and one or two other prolific mumsnet members.

Fairness and equality are basic British values. A litmus test for any society that upholds those values is how far it protects even the most marginalised groups. Britain has been among the countries going furthest in recognising lesbian, gay and bisexual rights, but we are still failing this test in respect of trans people, despite welcome progress.

High levels of transphobia are experienced by individuals on a daily basis (including in the provision of public services)—with serious results. About half of young trans people and a third of trans adults attempt suicide. The recent deaths in custody of two trans women, and the case of a trans woman who was placed in a men’s prison, are particularly stark illustrations of the issues.

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 was pioneering but is now dated. Its medicalised approach pathologises trans identities and runs contrary to the dignity and personal autonomy of applicants. The Government must update the Act, in line with the principle of gender self-declaration.

Trans people feel strongly that the provision on spousal consent under the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 gives spouses an effective “veto” on gender recognition. However, marriage is a legal contract between two consenting parties, the terms of which cannot be changed without the consent of both. We do, though, take very seriously the possibility that this provision may be used by spouses with malicious intent.

Protection for trans people under the Equality Act 2010 was a huge step forward. However, the terms “gender reassignment” and “transsexual” in the Act are outdated and misleading; and may not cover wider members of the trans community. The protected characteristic should be amended to that of “gender identity”.
The NHS is letting down trans people: it is failing in its legal duty under the Equality Act. Trans people encounter significant problems in using general NHS services, due to the attitude of some clinicians and other staff who lack knowledge and understanding—and in some cases are prejudiced. The NHS is failing to ensure zero tolerance of transphobic behaviour. GPs too often lack understanding and in some cases this leads to appropriate care not being provided. A root-and-branch review must be conducted, completed and published by the NHS.

We agree with the Chair of the NHS National Clinical Reference Group for Gender Identity Services that: “not treating people [for gender dysphoria] is not a neutral act—it will do harm.” We strongly welcome the trend towards depathologising trans identities. There is a clear and strong case that delaying treatment for young people risks more harm than providing it. We are also concerned that Gender Identity Services continue to be provided as part of mental-health services, giving the impression that trans identity is a disease or disorder of the mind.

There are serious concerns about treatment protocols in Gender Identity Services, particularly regarding “Real-Life Experience” prior to genital surgery. However, we are unconvinced by the argument that the NHS should simply grant on demand whatever treatment patients request.

It is also important to build trans people’s confidence in the criminal justice system. We welcome the Government’s willingness to strengthen hate-crime legislation. The existing provisions on aggravated offences and stirring up hatred should be extended to all protected characteristics. The Government’s new hate-crime action plan must include mandatory training for police officers on transphobic hate crime; and the promotion of third-party reporting. The Government must also work with the courts to tackle the issue of trans people being “outed” inappropriately in court.

Across the board, government departments are struggling to support trans people effectively, with the 2011 Advancing Transgender Equality action plan remaining largely unimplemented. The Government must agree a new strategy which it can deliver with full cross-departmental support.

OK. Morningrunner and Datun have waded in, so this thread is disappearing down the plughole of transphobia again. So -- as before, there is not much point me staying in it.

Last time we got involved in this "discussion", I didn't want to be accused of "cherrypicking" evidence so I just pointed to the Google Academic links page. But it seems that morningrunner doesn't like those links, so here are the top half dozen sites if you type "transgender brain" into the ordinary google search bar (the Harvard one is particularly good: it's in plain english, but with links to accessible academic papers) :

www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/

www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

www.thedailybeast.com/what-science-can-tell-us-about-trans-peoples-brainsand-what-it-cannot

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality

sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

academic.oup.com/jcem/article/85/5/2034/2660626/Male-to-Female-Transsexuals-Have-Female-Neuron

I'm happy to discuss the issues, but I am not prepared to waste time with someone(anyone) who chooses to simply ignore evidence that doesn't suit them. Last year, the Women and Equalities Select Committee (nine women, two men, no trans) published the results of its inquiry. It took evidence from lots of people, including police officers, academics, civil servants, medics, lawyers, trade unionists, and women's rights activists.

Anyone could have contributed written evidence, and many did so -- on both sides of the fence. And anyone can read it, here, in full: publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/39002.htm

But I'll put the summary in another post. I think it speaks for itself.

I can't speak for the transssexual community, but I am sure they would welcome a programme like More or Less looking into issues like the suicide statistics. The data are there in academic papers, but unfortunately they are mostly hidden behind very high paywalls. The idea that there has only been one trans suicide in the UK in 2017 is just plain wrong -- and even if it was correct, isn't that still one too many? (unless, of course, you subscribe to the view that the only good transsexual is a dead transsexual.)

ktown gah yes Disney and cartoons. I see a number if threads here about cartoons and the lack of female representation and since having my son and started watching them I completely agree. Or there is one female there but many in pink and/or doing "girly" things. Of COURSE girls these days want to identify out of that limiting role in life and say they are boys. Why wouldn't they?

qumwat ive written to them along similar lines and think the more people that do the better. We need to keep asking these questions.

I've considered writing to Radio 4's More or Less asking them to look into suicide rates for transgender teens. I doubt they would touch it with a bargepole though.

strange

I'm not going to pick apart
all your post. Because I don't intend to keep posting counterclaims. It's tiring.

However, there has only been one teen suicide in this country that could possibly be to do with trans. 2000 under age people attended the Tavistock last year alone.

Pavements would be littered with suicides, if the 40% statistic was accurate. The statistic was taken from a total of 27 people. A ridiculously useless sample (all of whom were alive).

If you can point me towards a UK list of transgender suicides, that would be great.

Meanwhile Wikipedia has a list of transgender deaths. Last time I looked, there weren't any in the UK.

There is certainly no scientific consensus that you can have a person with the brain of a woman in the body of a man.

Brain structure forms a mosaic across the sexes. In fact there is more difference between men of different ages than there are between men and women. Plasticity.

But the most important thing is what on earth difference does it make?

Transwomen commit crime at exactly the same rate as any other man. They make up a significant portion of convicted sex offenders.

Transactivists have demonstrated over and over how dangerous they are.

I don't want people like that in my bathroom. Or locker room. Or prison. Or rape refuge.

I certainly don't want men with gender dysphoria to be discriminated against on that basis.

I completely accept gender expression as a means to alleviate symptoms.

But certain areas of life are segregated by sex, not gender. And a sex category isn't what you feel in your head.

If there was, wouldn't all children who present as trans get these brain scans and are identified as definitively trans before being put on a pathway to puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery? Does that happen?

The brain thing is ridiculous.
Even if males and females brains are different, ones body and brain aren't seperate entities.
The whole thing is based on outdated stereotypes imported from the US.
If Kim and her ridiculous clan weren't around telling girls that is the feminine ideal I am sure teen girls might be happier.
And don't get me started on Disney.

a growing mass of solid science investigating the structure and functioning of transgendered brains compared with cisgendered brains.

Are there such things as transgendered brains and cisgendered brains then? Can you divide up human brains into such categories? I thought current thinking was there are no such things as male and female brains and there was too much crossover between the two to make a distinction so how would you make this cis/trans distinction?