Horizon programme on transgender

IAmEatingACurry That's how I feel. If you have self-identificaton then who's to say what being Trans is. On that ideology anyone who performs in anyway outside their gender (is not stereotypical) are Trans.
On one hand we have the True Trans tell us they are women because they say they are, but Crossdressers are not. That True Trans is surgery and hormones but other Trans are not authentic.
I don't think feminists are policing Trans politics as much as Trans police themselves and vigorously.
There is almost a script they follow, CDing at a young age, history of depression and suicide, which is not to be deviated from. India Willoughby is a good example of this. This Trans woman also doesn't want men in dresses in the Ladies, but she is allowed in as she is True Trans.
The Trans movement is full of twists and turns, leading to contradiction.
You are Trans if you say so unless a more worthy True Trans comes along to say you are not.

People with gender dysphoria probably do have different brain structures to those who don't have it. That wouldn't surprise me considering that people with anorexia also have different brain structures to those without it and incidentally, there is also a lot of overlap between the brains of people with anorexia and those with gender dysphoria. It's not unusual for people with gender dysphoria to have other mental health disorders such as anorexia. I for one have/had both.

I think it's hard to gather accurate suicide stats tbh. As has already been mentioned, people with gender dysphoria often have co-morbid mental health disorders such as eating disorders, depression and anxiety, all of which AFAIK have high risk of suicide and suicide attempts. So I think it's hard to say whether the high suicide attempts are a direct result of gender dysphoria itself, one of the other disorders or a combination of both.

Attempting suicide is not always an attempt to take one's life either. I know when I attempted suicide several times in my teens it wasn't always because I wanted to die, it was more because I felt the need to escape and escape from the body I was in and that seemed like a quick way of getting away from it at the time.

assassinated that's why I mentioned the possible influence of cartoons earlier, and also thinking of the wider media that is maybe influencing how children perceive themselves. Parents, going by what the children say and wanting to do the right thing may take them to the doctor. Doctor then refers. So then what is the criteria for diagnosis the children? How is the child's behaviour as a trans different from a child who isn't?

A child will do what it is told by the parent and the parent will do what's advised by the doctor, and behaviours shown by the child. So it's circular? Is that correct? Is that how it works? Genuine questions

I saw this show. I thought the parents were wonderful in being supportive and living and accepting.

But I wanted the medical professionals to scream out " so she didn't like dresses and prefers short hair? Neither does half the population they just wear what they like it doesn't mean they are trans"

The jumping for joy over medication and hardly touching what it actually means and having teenagers decide therefore future 're children....

And the voice surgery it didn't work did it Sarah sounded no more like a woman after than they did before.

I'm not clued up about this stuff at all the posters above are far more articulate and deeper thinking of the issues than I could ever be bit the overall impression I got was just that they had all been lied to. And I'm scared for the future of the children who can't be who they are without labels. Can they please just call.puberty blockers what they actually are please. The brutality of it all seemed so watered down.

There was a even a thread on mumsnet not long ago in which several people boasted of their efforts to disrupt a statistical survey into TS life experiences by bombarding it with fake responses!

That survey was aimed at LGBT people in order to gather views about the gender identity bill.

Do you not see the irony in getting angry about people self identifying as LGBT in order to complete a survey about a self identification bill? Either self identification is a good idea or it isn't but you can't pick and choose who can self identify and when they can.

StrangeAdventure
Why, in your view, are there so many girls who want to transition compared to boys? If they are really trans, why are there not hordes of newly transitioning trans men of all ages who would have transitioned when younger if this ideology had been around when they were children?

It's the first steps where parents seem to be medicalising normal behaviour. Why is there this seemingly large rise in very young children being presented as trans by their parents? As in 3,4,5 year olds. They're socially transitioning at 5/6/7 and then growing up being told they can easily change their bodies and become the opposite sex. How can these children easily turn around and say that actually they're ok as they are?

Look at the case of Helen Webberley and the willingness to diagnose over the Internet and prescribe drugs rapidly. That's not what you've described. The woman who runs Mermaids took her son aged 16 abroad to have surgery, again nothing like the process you describe.

Sorry, can't do any more. Got to get on with my day.
I'm not "flouncing" as someone so kindly out it in a previous discussion: I've just got more important things to do with my life than point people towards information that they don't want to believe. It's there. Google it for yourselves. But please don't pick the dross from anti-trans pressure groups: look for the quality information from professional bodies, universities, and governments.

Gingernaut
The numbers involved in TS studies are often small because it is a rare condition. But the studies have been done, and are on-going.. There was a even a thread on mumsnet not long ago in which several people boasted of their efforts to disrupt a statistical survey into TS life experiences by bombarding it with fake responses!
But the results of biomedical research are clear enough for expert clinicians to use them as the basis for diagnosis and advice. Yes, practices are changing, as the scientific basis becomes more secure. But they are relatively minor changes aimed at improving outcomes, not on people quoting flawed forty year old data in an effort to deny treatment.

Where. Does. The. 40% suicide. Statistic. Come. From?

Assassinated
I --and I'm sure most other people - share your concerns regarding kids. Where we seem to differ is that I think that if a parent is worried about their child, they are quite right to see their GP about it. If the GP refers them to specialists for assessment and diagnosis, I think the parent is doing the right thing to accept. If the specialists then advise a particular course of action, I think it makes sense for the parents and child to consider following that advice.
I don't think it is right for anyone to pressure the parents and child into rejecting that advice.
And I think it is very, very wrong for religious or political pressure groups to try to compel their child to undergo a snake-oil treatment that all the professional bodies regard as counterproductive, dangerous, and unethical.
I can see why people would not want a diagnosis of transsexualism, but not going to the assessment will not make the condition go away!

Where does that statistic come from?

strange I quoted you, you said
"Pre-surgery suicide rates vary enormously depending on which part of the population you look at, but the most widely-accepted figures are that about 40% for untreated TS". That says about 40% of pretransition trans people kill themselves. That fact is repeated everywhere, I hear it nearly every time there is a discussion about transgender. But it's not true and I think it's scaremongering/increases risk to trans people to insist it is.

People with trans children often say they were told "better a live daughter than a dead son" in reference to suicide rates. Can you imagine being told that? It's emotional blackmail and also could give the child the idea that suicide/attempts is how to pressure your parents.

It just annoys me, and is another example where if you try to get to the facts you get branded a transphobe.

There aren't two types of brain or three types of brain. Brains can't be reliably sorted into male and female. There are features found more frequently in men and features found more frequently in women but massive cross overs between the two populations. Just as there are characteristics more commonly expressed by women and characteristics more commonly expressed by men but no one way to be either.

People and their brains are diverse, shaped by genetics, experience and other factors. It's ridiculously simplistic to think that scanning someone's brain will tell you how they think about anything, including their gender identity (if they feel they have one). If brain scans can be used as some sort of detector of dysphoria then it might well evidence that sex and gender dysphorias have more in common with developmental disorders like autism or other dysphorias like anorexia. Of course that wouldn't fit with the peculiar logic of transactivists who seem to think that it is highly offensive to even consider that their might be something wrong with their minds even while they ask for massive resources to be committed to change their apparently completely healthy selves.

StrangeAdventure I would really appreciate it if you could stop crossing out every other paragraph in your posts. It makes reading very difficult. If you don't want to own what you are writing then don't write it.

Also I'd be interested to see a study that shows that suicidal thoughts are reduced/resolved by GRS surgery. I thought that Johns Hopkins had found that there was no difference in outcomes after 10 years but maybe that study is a bit out of date?

The brain scans showed that transsexuals had brains different to men and to women.

There's a third type of brain. That is not proof of a man wanting to be a woman or a woman a man.

Another thing about those studies - there are male and female homosexuals, male and female heterosexuals and male and female bisexuals.

Transgender people were not compared to people belonging to any of these types.

I would like to see the results of patients who identify as transgender compared to gay, straight and bisexual people of their starting sex and their destination sex before anyone starts hailing the study results as proof of their argument.

Right now, the numbers involved in any of these studies are tiny, the representation limited and the conclusions of the studies on rocky ground.

"Although research continues, the only conclusive proof so far, is that those who identify as transgender are different to men and women. YES!

So a transwoman is not a man."

That doesn't necessarily follow. A trans woman is a man with an apparently different brain to a typical man. That doesn't make them a non-man, or a woman.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that trans people shouldn't transition, I'm certainly not. I'll happily support any adult who wants to change their presentation and who feels they need surgery and hormone treatment to be who they want to be.

I am extremely concerned that children who don't conform to our currently very restrictive sex-based stereotypes are being wrongly labeled as trans by adults when they are simply non conforming. It's all well and good saying that it's a pathway not a conveyor belt, but if you socially transition as a child, have puberty blockers and so on, it would be a massive step to tell people that you've changed your mind or that you're not sure. I also don't believe that puberty blockers are harmless and don't cause any long term issues. Also, experiencing puberty contributes to brain development and the process of becoming an adult. I worry about children who miss out on this stage of development.

I mean "They will not lose muscle mass." if they do not take hormones.

StrangeAdventure I know you have gone to bed, (as I should too) but I just wanted to add that you seem to have an idea of what trans means that is not necessarily related to what is happening now.

"And once she has had HRT and GRS, and various other treatments, she will have has acquired some of the physical traits of a cis-woman, and lost some of the physical traits of a cis-man. In particular, she loses the muscle mass, aggression, libido, and penis that make some cis-men a potential threat to women. If it makes her feel better, and allows her to enjoy life, hold down a job, and contribute to society... why not? Sounds like a win-win solution to me."

Well that would all be great for transsexuals of course, and I know a transsexual who transitioned early, although not as a child of course, and is very happy being a transsexual woman.

However, many transgender women now will not have surgery or necessarily take hormones. They will not lose muscle mass. They may have surgery to create female-looking breasts, but may still retain their penis. And hormones may not affect their ability to use their penis.

You may wonder why this matters, well, as far as I see it is confusing. My transexual woman friend is angry that transexual people like herself, who have identified as female for a long time, not benefitted from male privilage and are no threat to women (and just want to live their lives quietly) have been used as examples for others who have lived as men for a long time, benefited from male privilege and are now identifying as women.

My friend had no opportunity to identify as a man, she was way too effeminate to 'pass' as a man, was sexually attracted to men and wanted to live as woman. Her life does indeed follow the pattern you state, but this is not now the norm of trans gender.

Anyway, to no one in particular, many women are now very concerned about the proposed self identification bill which, if it comes into law, could see any man identifying as a woman. The issues are much more complicated than the Horizon programme presented.

It's also important to note in the horizon progamme there were only two trans men and one trans boy, and they were all very young, compared to twice as many trans women of a variety of ages. Trans men and trans women do not all seem to present with the same issues and concerns, it just does not seem to be very similar in the way 'trans' can affect males and females. Who is doing research on that I wonder, that is not to anyone in particular!

This issue will not be going away and it is important that reporting on it gives more facts and not just emotive appeals. The Horizon programme gave a very one sided view.

StrangeAdventure I am pretty sure that no one here wants any one to commit suicide, trans or otherwise, young or old.

The issue with inflating numbers about trans suicide is that it is being used to scare parents into agreeing to treatments which they may not feel are in their child's best interest.

There is also now, more than in my own childhood, an emphasis on what is 'normal' for boys or girls, so some young children, teens and older people may feel that because they want certain toys, or clothes or whatever, this must mean they are trans gender, rather than simply not wanting to go along with the gender stereotypes. I am aware that trans people may feel dysphoric etc, I am not disputing that. But not every child or adult that feels dysphoric will automatically be trans.

All the TV programmes I've seen or articles I've read about trans children all talk about clothes and toys. The BBC Horizon programme mentioned at the start of this thread featured an 11 year old girl. She has an unconventional hair cut for a girl and said she did not like dresses. She was not keen to start her period.

The mum in her conclusion said "He's alive, he's happy, he's healthy, and I'm happy he's able to be himself."

Of course any parent want their child to be happy and healthy. But take a look at this as an alternative route, which may be equally relevant for some trans presenting children/teens.

4thwavenow.com/2016/12/17/a-mums-voyage-through-transtopia-helps-her-daughter-desist/

So no suicide or death is acceptable. We need accurate records/facts, we need to know the best way to help 'our' (societies) children, of course.

And the distinctions you are making between transexuals and cross dressers/transvestites is not correct according to the stonewall glossary of terms. "Trans – an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth. Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) Transgender, Transsexual, Gender-queer (GQ), Gender-fluid, Non-binary, Gender-variant, Crossdresser, Genderless, Agender, Nongender, Third gender, Two-spirit, Bi-gender, Transman, Transwoman,Trans masculine, Trans feminine and Neutrois"

Gingernaut
This has to be the last one before bed.
Thanks for reading those links, and for restating some of the important points, and in particular for your conclusion that

Environment, genetics, socialisation, family, peer and social pressure can all cause behaviour which will affect brain chemistry and structure. Yes, I agree. So a trans child who is pressured into adopting a gender role that does not come naturally to them will eventually adapt, to some extent, to fit society's expectations. This, I believe, is what allows some trans people to suppress their transness long into adult life.

A gay child, in a conservative society, who is attracted to someone of the same sex will probably be conflicted, believe that they are 'wrong' in some fashion and they will be forced to act in a manner not in keeping with their sexuality. This will affect behaviour, brain chemistry and brain structure. We're not talking about gay children, but it seems a reasonable analogy.

Although research continues, the only conclusive proof so far, is that those who identify as transgender are different to men and women. YES!

So a transwoman is not a man. And once she has had HRT and GRS, and various other treatments, she will have has acquired some of the physical traits of a cis-woman, and lost some of the physical traits of a cis-man. In particular, she loses the muscle mass, aggression, libido, and penis that make some cis-men a potential threat to women. If it makes her feel better, and allows her to enjoy life, hold down a job, and contribute to society... why not? Sounds like a win-win solution to me.

yes Disney and cartoons. I see a number if threads here about cartoons and the lack of female representation and since having my son and started watching them I completely agree. Or there is one female there but many in pink and/or doing "girly" things. Of COURSE girls these days want to identify out of that limiting role in life and say they are boys. Why wouldn't they?

Fgs keep a grip on reality.

We can't argue with beliefs.

Cold, hard, logical and scientifically verified facts are required.

Suicide is so contentious an issue, that coroners are often loath to give the verdict of suicide, even though the deceased deliberately took the necessary steps to kill themselves.

Until people stop being so squeamish about relatives' sensibilities, we will never have a true suicide rate, whatever the cause.

AssassinatedBeauty
OK. I'm sorry. I obviously didn't put it very well.
May I explain?
I originally wrote:
The idea that there has only been one trans suicide in the UK in 2017 is just plain wrong -- and even if it was correct, isn't that still one too many? (unless, of course, you subscribe to the view that the only good transsexual is a dead transsexual.)
In other words: I don't agree that there has only been one trans suicide in the UK in 2017 (I believe there have been many more).
But I don't see any point in arguing over the numbers, because even if it was only one, that would be one too many.
The only reason I could see for anyone disagreeing that one suicide is one too many would be if they thought that person should be dead.
I'm pretty certain I didn't intend to accuse you of thinking that trans people should kill themselves -- I have no reason to think that you do. That is why I was so surprised (and, yes, offended).

As to whether we agree about the best method for preventing trans suicide, I don't profess to be a psychiatrist, nor I think have I expressed my personal opinions about it on here. What I can say is that the overwhelming weight of expert opinion that I have read suggests that transition significantly reduces the risk of suicide.

I know there are other "treatments" available, but the most commonly-talked about alternative is "conversion" or "reparative" therapy. Earlier this year, the professional bodies representing psychiatrists, medics and counselllors in the UK, plus the NHS, signed a Memorandum of Agreement which said
^We the undersigned UK organisations wish to state that the practice of conversion therapy has no place in the modern world. It is unethical and harmful and not supported by evidence.
 
Conversion Therapy is the term for therapy that assumes certain sexual orientations or gender identities are inferior to others, and seeks to change or suppress them on that basis.^

First article is dated 2011 - Guillamon thinks such scans may not help in all cases. “Research has shown that white matter matures during the first 20 to 30 years of life,” he says. “People may experience early or late onset of transsexuality and we don’t know what causes this difference.”

2nd article dated 2016 - “Trans people have brains that are different from males and females, a unique kind of brain,” Guillamon says. “It is simplistic to say that a female-to-male transgender person is a female trapped in a male body. It's not because they have a male brain but a transsexual brain.” Of course, behavior and experience shape brain anatomy, so it is impossible to say if these subtle differences are inborn.

3rd article dated this year - Of course, there’s a chicken-or-the-egg problem here: Is gender dysphoria the result of this difference in brain response or is it the cause? Can the brain explain how someone becomes transgender, or does being transgender explain how the brain behaves?

Case can’t make any firm conclusions either way. As she notes in the study, “Scientific reductionism is unlikely to yield a simple explanation for a phenomenon as complex as gender identity.” Asthey did with homosexuality, researchers have tried and failed toconclusively identify biological indicators—and even causes of—transgender identity.

[What the experiment showed was that FtM transgenders had brains that did not react to taps on their soon to be removed breasts in the same way as 'normal' women.

Well, no shit Sherlock!

Try the same thing with someone who has body dysmorphia and who rejects a limb. Tapping the rejected limb will not evoke the same response as someone who does not suffer from body dysmorphia]

Wiki is simply not reliable.

The fourth 'article' is a blog post from a 3rd year student who is positing a theory based on studies, some of which have been criticised by other scientists.

The last two simply show that there are differences between 'transgenders' and males and females.

Environment, genetics, socialisation, family, peer and social pressure can all cause behaviour which will affect brain chemistry and structure.

A gay child, in a conservative society, who is attracted to someone of the same sex will probably be conflicted, believe that they are 'wrong' in some fashion and they will be forced to act in a manner not in keeping with their sexuality. This will affect behaviour, brain chemistry and brain structure.

Although research continues, the only conclusive proof so far, is that those who identify as transgender are different to men and women.