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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Horizon programme on transgender

116 replies

Pemba · 26/09/2017 19:46

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096k5dm

BBC Two tonight (Tuesday) 9 pm. I wonder what take they'll have on it?

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ALittleBitOfButter · 01/10/2017 20:20

Strange lambasts feminists for not toeing the intersectional line and centering trans viewpoints.
Yet completely ignores Curry. In fact I've never seen a strident TRA engage with the comments of a gender critical trans poster.

Wonder why?

dancerdog · 01/10/2017 20:07

Never thought I would be brave enough to comment in these threads but the link to Edinburgh Action on Trans Health - especially the demands - is quite a read.

BMacklin · 01/10/2017 18:30

its well quite. Correlation isn't causation.

BMacklin · 01/10/2017 18:29

pencils and iris fascinating! Thanks!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/10/2017 18:20

According to mental health charities

We are fucking up our kids. I think things like the jump is trans is a symptom of this. That stonewall report that 96% of trans were self harming was apparently an internet survey. There is this odd assumption that this is due to the distress of being trans, rather than considering other mental health conditions at all.

Gingernaut · 01/10/2017 18:14

According to mental health charities, there has been an almighty jump in incidences of self-harm

This is the most recent article I could find....

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/23/shocking-nhs-figures-show-rise-in-self-harm-among-under-18s/

Gingernaut · 01/10/2017 18:11

@Iris65. Many thanks.

So unreliable, like virtually all the statistics quoted by the TRAs........🤔

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/10/2017 18:08

According to Stonewall 96% of trans students are self-harming. I suspect there may be some issues with the methodology, and with the interpretation of results...

Ktown · 01/10/2017 17:57

How about gender is dropped altogether and we just refer to birth sex?

SerfTerf · 01/10/2017 17:53

Assigned at birth sounds like the midwives were busy gossiping and didn't bother to look properly so 'assigned' the baby as any old thing.

TBH, it makes it sound as though it's done on a random allocation. Perhaps by drawing straws.

It's one of the things which undermines the credibility of the currently fashionable narrative that the transactivists are pushing.

Iris65 · 01/10/2017 16:26

The Horizon programme referred uncritically to the finding that 40% of trans people attempt suicide. This figure is from on a survey commissioned by several trans organisations that was carried out in the UK and Ireland over a online over a three month period in 2012 and completed by 106 people. The survey’s findings are available on the websites of the commissioning organisations. It has not been peer reviewed and published in a recognised journal. This may be because the methodology is very poor and therefore we cannot accept the findings uncritically. A brief analysis reveals the following:
With 106 respondents it is a tiny sample if the demographic of 1% of the population having gender identity issues is accepted. For example, the estimated population of trans people in the UK alone would be @600,000, according to trans organisation figures.
Surveys are also notorious for the self selected nature of the sample. People completing surveys often differ from the target population in important respects. For example, they are motivated (for whatever reason) to complete the survey. Those who have good mental health may not be as motivated to complete a survey as they are occupied with other things. Self selected respondents are also often more compliant than the target population (hence agreeing to and taking the time to do the survey) and may therefore be more easily influenced by leading questions and confirmation bias.
The 1 - 3 hours that it took to complete the survey may have excluded those with less time, such as those who are fully employed. As there is an association between good mental health and employment it is possible that it has unwittingly excluded those with good mental health.
The trans community is also quite a tight knit one. Trans people who are in touch with organisations such as TransBareAll often know each other and it is possible that many (if not all) respondents were known to each other and shared norms and values as well as being exposed to the same kind of information. This can also lead to a biased sample.
The statement that 81% of those who had started or completed transition had thought about or attempted suicide before beginning transition is not helpful to policymakers or those working with trans people either. There are no statistics given for how many are no longer suicidal after transition and there are no raw numbers, so this figure could be based as on a few as 5 people. There are actually very few peer reviewed and high quality studies that look at outcome following transition, so it is of little surprise that figures are not quoted.
The often stated conclusion that trans people need more access to treatment because of their risk of suicide is not supported either. It is unclear how many of the respondents to this survey have completed or begun gender reassignment. It is entirely possible that people who have access to these interventions remain suicidal, in which case what trans people need is support for their mental health, not earlier or more aggressive medical and surgical intervention.

Datun · 01/10/2017 15:18

This from Johns Hopkins University:

*Arif ... concludes that none of the studies provides conclusive evidence that gender reassignment is beneficial for patients. It found that most research was poorly designed, which skewed the results in favour of physically changing sex. There was no evaluation of whether other treatments, such as long-term counselling, might help transsexuals, or whether their gender confusion might lessen over time. Arif says the findings of the few studies that have tracked significant numbers of patients over several years were flawed because the researchers lost track of at least half of the participants. The potential complications of hormones and genital surgery, which include deep vein thrombosis and incontinence respectively, have not been thoroughly investigated, either.

“There is huge uncertainty over whether changing someone’s sex is a good or a bad thing,” says Dr Chris Hyde, director of Arif. “While no doubt great care is taken to ensure that appropriate patients undergo gender reassignment, there’s still a large number of people who have the surgery but remain traumatized — often to the point of committing suicide.”[78]*

Pencils

Bravo!

MissBabbs · 01/10/2017 15:15

I. Wish they would change 'gender assigned at birth' to 'gender of their physical appearance' so it would be 'people are not happy with the gender of their physical appearance'.
Assigned at birth sounds like the midwives were busy gossiping and didn't bother to look properly so 'assigned' the baby as any old thing.

sarasabrownie · 01/10/2017 15:08

Excellent post pencils

SuburbanRhonda · 01/10/2017 15:05

Good point, mrsdv.

TheFirstMrsDV · 01/10/2017 14:59

I thought mis gendering was not allowed on MN?
Why is the term 'cis' repeatedly used on this thread?

QuentinSummers · 01/10/2017 14:34

several people boasted of their efforts to disrupt a statistical survey into TS life experiences by bombarding it with fake responses!
Actually I think you will find many of us were completely entitled to complete the survey, being lesbian, bisexual or even agender. Agender (no gender identity) falls under the LGBT+ and trans umbrella, as tge link from stonewall shows.
Our responses weren't fake, how dare you. Can't think of anyone on that thread who identified as a cisgender straight woman and therefore not entitled to complete the survey.

SuburbanRhonda · 01/10/2017 14:05

pencils

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

PencilsInSpace · 01/10/2017 13:36

StrangeAdventure

Shame the only link anyone has provided was to a US-based forum that is primarily for cross-dressers (= cis-men who dress up as women) rather than UK transsexuals.

You seem to be a bit out of touch on this. All the definitions of trans I have read in recent years include cross dressers as well as a huge range of other GNC people. Here's Stonewall's definition:

Trans – an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth. Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) Transgender, Transsexual, Gender-queer (GQ), Gender-fluid, Non-binary, Gender-variant, Crossdresser, Genderless, Agender, Nongender, Third gender, Two-spirit, Bi-gender, Transman, Transwoman,Trans masculine, Trans feminine and Neutrois.
--------
Last year, the Women and Equalities Select Committee (nine women, two men, no trans) published the results of its inquiry. It took evidence from lots of people, including police officers, academics, civil servants, medics, lawyers, trade unionists, and women's rights activists.

Anyone could have contributed written evidence, and many did so -- on both sides of the fence.

Are you seriously transplaining Miller's report to MNers? That is priceless! You're right, many contributed written evidence from all sorts of viewpoints.

This evidence from the British Psychological Society was ignored:

psychologists working with forensic patients are aware of a number of cases where men convicted of sex crimes have falsely claimed to be transgender females for a number of reasons:

- As a means of demonstrating reduced risk and so gaining parole;
- As a means of explaining their sex offending aside from sexual gratification (e.g. wanting to ‘examine’ young females);
- Or as a means of separating their sex offending self (male) from their future self (female).
- In rare cases it has been thought that the person is seeking better access to females and young children through presenting in an apparently female way.

Such strategies in no way affect risk an indeed may increase it. Some people falsely believe that taking oestrogen and blocking androgen in males will reduce risk of offending, however this is not necessarily the case.

Consequently the Society recommends that the Government give appropriate assistance to transgender people within the criminal justice system; while being extremely cautious of setting law and policy such that some of the most dangerous people in society have greater latitude to offend.

This evidence from the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists was ignored:

The converse is the ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard. I am sure that the Governor concerned would be happy to talk about this.

Evidence from women's groups was wholesale dismissed as '“extraordinary” hostility from a minority of women “purporting to be feminists”.' And Miller still has no answers to the difficult questions raised by those groups. It's all just 'very difficult' but never mind, it's Justine Greening's problem now.

You know who was listened to? Who was asked to give verbal evidence and who is referenced heavily in that report? The wonderfully sane and non-violent Action for Trans Health.

I suggest you go and read the many threads on here where posters have analysed the contents of that report and what its recommendations would mean in practice. Then go on Site Stuff and read the many requests for Miller or Greening to come on for a webchat because many of us think they have questions to answer.

Stopmakingsense · 01/10/2017 13:23

Autistic people are more likely to suffer from identity difficulties, MH problems, anorexia etc, and social functioning, fitting in with their peers. Autistic girls and women are often not diagnosed, or misdiagnosed. Autistic young people are often emotionally immature. Add to that social contagion, and all the other pressures on young people and you have the perfect storm.

Italiangreyhound · 01/10/2017 13:19

morningrunner I know how you feel. I was most upset by Luke. She looked like a normal little girl who was a exploring an alternative personality as 'Luke' and may now be on hormone blockers and on a life to medically transition. If she loses her female reproductive organs she won't be able to have a birth child and that surgery, if completed, will be irreversible.

This seemed a million miles from Vinnessa who was 25. Said she had wanted the surgery since she was 14 or 15. Personally, I could completely understand that life would be easier and better for Vinnessa to live as a woman.

I think it is easy for those of us who are very nervous about how young potentially gender dysphoric children are being treated (and worried about any male identifying as a woman to get into women only spaces) being labelled as transphobic - and it is simply not true.

I would wish Vinnessa all the very best if this is for her (even in spite of all the talk of pink, barbies and abandoning tonka trucks in her segment). But she is an adult and is making a choice. Totally different to young children.

Plus was there any mention for Jamie (19, not 18 as I may have said earlier, but still a teen) of the dangers of testosterone? I don't remember it being mentioned in the programme.

I think many of us who post on here are parents, and I can well imagine any loving parents will try and be supportive, in as much as they can get their heads around things.

On this thread we mentioned fertility earlier. As I say, I watched some bits of it again. I think it was tragic hearing the two teenage girls talking about whether they will ever want biological children, and that they will have to make that decision now.

Italiangreyhound · 01/10/2017 13:03

I watched some bits of it again today. There are 25 days left to watch iplayer.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b096k5dm/horizon-2017-being-transgender

I think I may write to the BBC as I feel it is so one-sided.

Italiangreyhound · 01/10/2017 12:42

IAmEatingACurry thank you for posting it is always good to hear from people who have actually experienced things.

People with autism are more likely to also have gender dysphoria (than general population)

www.mercatornet.com/conjugality/view/the-increasingly-convincing-link-between-autism-and-gender-dysphoric-kids/19232

morningrunner · 01/10/2017 12:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MightyMikey · 01/10/2017 11:46

IAmEatingACurry
Posted before I saw your follow up post. Wanted to say I have great sympathy for anyone who suffers from any mental health issues. Do what you need to do to keep safe and happy and don't take to heart what any random person says on a forum. Peace

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