I'm a gender critical feminist with a 'trans' child.

But this is exactly what we need to dismantle, not just give in and instead try to change the ideas of what it means to be female to better ones

SomeDyke, I'm just seeing a staged approach, that is all. Name, explore, dismantle, change, relegate terms to history.

I want to get rid of it. I'm happy to name it, describe it and show it up for the ridiculous nonsense it is.

I can't help feeling that we are arguing less about apples and pears and more about two different apples.

We all want to eliminate gender. We all know it's harmful. We all know that the stereotypes, when illuminated become less about stereotypes and more about personality traits across the sexes.

"simply acknowledges the inevitability that people will still have ideas concerning what it means to be male and female, beyond biology."
But this is exactly what we need to dismantle, not just give in and instead try to change the ideas of what it means to be female to better ones.

Think about putting race and racism here, instead of sex and sexism. Just because there are quantifiable biological differences behind the construct of race (skin colour, differences in hair and ear-wax, I think, susceptibility to certain diseases or medical conditions) does that mean we shouldn't try to get rid of racism?

Overall, I think for me what the whole gender system has done for women is so hateful, that we need to get rid totally, rather than pandering to it. But that's just radical feminism for you, as far as I'm concerned!

But whilst people hold these gender perceptions we need to use and acknowledge those terms (of the gender perceptions), in order to be able to encourage them to explore their thinking.

Agree completely.

Removing stereotypes, does indeed force people to see the oppression stripped bare. The assumptions that are made about women can be shown to be false.

I just think viewing things in a stereotypical, prejudiced manner is a very human thing to do. It is a short cut, to consciously thinking, people do, without realising. Generally, all a lot of people have to do is a bit more thinking. But whilst people hold these gender perceptions we need to use and acknowledge those terms (of the gender perceptions), in order to be able to encourage them to explore their thinking.

This is a beautiful way to deal with this !
It sounds like he is genuinely struggling with his body and you are not just giving in and allowing him to make big decisions before he is ready. At the same time you are not belittling him for having feelings of dysphoria !
You sound like an amazing mum.

I think you are right about the backlash which in most part is much more subtle and all pervasive. I had a high achieving female relative share a post on fb without any critical thought about how hard it was to be a woman because you have "dress like a lady and think like a man". FFS

The protective status necessary for women is based on their oppression. Stereotypes are a means of keeping women down. But they're not the cause.

Removing stereotypes, does indeed force people to see the oppression stripped bare. The assumptions that are made about women can be shown to be false.

So, one is sort of working backwards.

I don't think it's any coincidence that the trans-ideology has come about now, and that they are joined by every MRA in the country.

Women have been making inroads about their roles and gender expectations, and there is a backlash.

Datun I based my post based on some of what was said on another thread dealing with a similar topic. I agree with you. in that gender is not irrelevant and that stereotypical ideas of it are restrictive, reductive and oppressive. I am not sure it can be eliminated whilst we still are concerned with what sex someone is, though, or whilst there is still a need for protective status for women.

Although I believe gender is socially constructed, there is no way I think it's irrelevant.

What you're describing is exactly what feminists do ponderingprobably. Eliminating gender doesn't mean it doesn't matter. It's precisely because it's so damaging, that it needs eliminating.

That means that the stereotypes are, or should be, ungendered. The roles remain, but they are not based on sex.

Which is what the BBC programme no more boys and girls demonstrated.

They took things stereotypically associated with one sex and allowed the opposite sex to experience them.

Consequently, the girls' self esteem rose, and the boys anger and self centredness dropped.

But, in addition to that, their attitudes changed.

Dispelling the gender myth had a very positive result.

What was interesting was how eye opening it was for the adults. Who had unconsciously perpetuated the stereotypes.

Yes, drspouse. However there is a faction within feminism which seeks to argue, because gender is a social construct, it is irrelevant. The difference in acknowledging gender as a social construct but appreciating it is meaningful and impacts on our lives, yet seeking to change perceptions those of gender, to more realistic ones, simply acknowledges the inevitability that people will still have ideas concerning what it means to be male and female, beyond biology. It addresses and explores perceptions instead of dismissing them. It promotes discussion.

I thought we were already trying to do that?

With things like "girls can.." and "girls and their toys" on Twitter showing the variety of things that are "girly".

Sort of Poppy. My own defining of 'feminine' is anything associated with the female sex and 'masculine' anything associated with the male sex. The traditional stereotypes are, quite frankly, out of date and do not fit in with modern society. Biologically female people, as you say like science, are doctors, fight on the front line. Biologically male people are midwives, stay at home parents and domestic cleaners. Biological male people can wear makeup, have long hair and wear skirts and dresses. Biologically female people can have short hair, not wear makeup and wear ties shirts and trousers. They do in society today. What is more we can be progressive and our change perceptions of gender to acknowledge this as ok whilst still saying these gender perceptions do not involve a change in sex.

What do you mean by "feminine gender?" Are you suggesting we change the definition (for want of a better word) of what feminine means to include being good at science etc?
Btw this is not meant to sound argumentative, I'm genuinely interested in your idea but not sure quite what you mean.

Slip there, that should read 'feminine gender' although IMO it can be feminist too!

I said this in another thread and it might sound counter intuitive but I think it might be time for feminists to reclaim the 'feminine gender'. Gender does exist, albeit as a social construct. Gender is just a set of beliefs, in society, concerning how men and women are expected to look, think and behave. Feminists are very much a part of society. Why not reclaim the feminist gender in a way that transcends and challenges traditional sexual stereotypes?

Then feminists can create some truly inclusive resources, for schools etc, dealing with gender within our society. Ones which are compatible with science and equality.

I too, am interested in the autism side of things. My nephew is very rigid in his thinking and now will only accept presents that are boy presents.

Another relative, after sex education lessons in Y6, came home thinking he had to sort out getting a girlfriend fast as he could only have sex when he was 16. (now an Oxbridge student)

Diagnosis of autism like conditions is not very good and it is not easy either. Tony Attwood, mentioned above, had a piece in the Guardian about failing to diagnose his own son. www.theguardian.com/society/2017/sep/25/why-the-world-expert-on-aspergers-took-30-years-to-notice-condition-in-his-own-son

It has been known for the last ten years or so that the probable reason for the low number of girls with autism is that they do not come under the obvious signs that have been used for boys.

That you can diagnose yourself with transgender, and set off on the path of puberty blockers, and opposite sex hormones and surgery, without ruling out any other problems is bizarre.

AdultHumanFemale

Come to the next meeting! Let's get acquainted in real life.

Looking forward to your thread, Datun . It's funny, I had a suspicion I am acquainted with you in RL, but the person I thought might be you has not been to Brighton recently

Stopmakingsense

I'm going to start a thread tomorrow, in feminist chat. I've just come back from the Brighton meeting.

Stephanie Davis Arai was speaking. She originally set up a website for parents of transgender children. And very much has the interests of children at heart.

She had several things to say, which I will post tomorrow when I can give it my full attention.

But one of the things was that she has never seen a girl transition who didn't have either autism, was a lesbian, or had past sexual trauma.

Given the girls now make up 70% of referrals, that's very damning.

It shows that girls are transitioning, purely for societal reasons, apart from the autism.

She is determined to get autism addressed in this context.

It also makes you wonder what the reasons are for men transitioning. If it's homosexuality, autism, and past sexual trauma, what's the rest? If it's not a fetish?

Her experience of girls transitioning give the absolute lie to the fact that it's a brain-based mismatch.

I too am a gender critical feminist with a trans child. I was totally blind-sided by this, and I have become a gender critical feminist as a result of it. My DD is on the autistic spectrum - this we have only recently found out (i.e. after the trans thing). A feature is rigid thinking and inability to tolerate grey areas. She has never been very girly but that was never an issue, until about a year ago. So when you are talking about stereotypes, in her case I can quite see that, finding she doesn't fit squarely in one box, and struggling with undiagnosed autism, she categorically decides that she must be in the other box, and that this is answer to her struggles. It is well documented (Tony Attwood etc) that gender difficulties are common for these individuals, and this can take a number of years to resolve (i.e. hold off the hormones and surgery). So whether through autism or another cause, I can see how the upholding of cultural stereotypes is incredibly important in the transgender "religion".

And WHY is it so important to "present" as one or the other set of stereotypes?

It has to be because the way they perceive they will be treated.

Making such a song and dance about who they are, what they are and why they are is narcissistic, yes. But what is the point other than to be treated in a certain way by other people.

There are certainly lots of people at the moment, Sean Faye, Paris Lees, and that other chap whose name I can't remember who talked about wanting objectification, who quite openly state that street harassment, etc is empowering, or flattering.

There is no rush to be described as nurturing, good mothers, or empathetic. Or any female stereotypes that don't relate to the physical.

Even those without AGP, crave the validation being seen as female. Only physically though.

How do women know they are being treated as physically women?

There's admiration, yes of course. But it's also often negative behaviour towards them. In the form of harassment, objectification (and worse).

One of the most damaging parts of this new wave of transwomen is both their lack of understanding (or care) of how this is intimidating for women and their encouragement of it for themselves. Especially if they then go on to say they are representative of women and support feminism. And therefore it's representative of the attitude of most women. Or should be.

The danger of any these people getting into a position where they can directly affect legislation, schooling, company protocols, or writing for teen magazines, (as several of them have), is horrifying.

There are now books educating young children about their gender, asking them to explore something they do not have. They are written in the same way as religious books aimed at kids. Genderists are creating gender, then telling kids they may have a problem which can be fixed by changing your name and surgery. Bet the companies who make the drugs are gleeful, for once in history they are benefiting from a youth movement and cult.

I'm so sick of hearing the word gender now. After participating in gender critical debates, to me, it just means people who want to categorise their personality according to stereotypes that were developed to subjugate women.

The whole trans ideology is so confused, illogical and regressive.

And WHY is it so important to "present" as one or the other set of stereotypes? Why can't people just be comfortable with wearing what they want, without constantly worrying about how they're perceived? We keep getting told how fundamental "gender identity" is. I've happily lived 40 years without it thank you very much.

I have a female body. It does not define my personality. I experience sexism because of my body not because of my personality.