DEBATE NOT HATE: WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT GENDER

Just read that, WeeWitch. I'm wondering if I should forward it to the latest friend to be going through this -- the third I've heard about since the start of the new school year.

Slight deviation from the current convo here, sorry -

I’m posting this link to Lily Maynard’s most recent blog post here as it relates to the discussion at the debate about trans teens. It’s a heart-wrenching read, mostly focusing on the silencing of the parents of trans kids and the repeated fact that kids are pushed to transition without proper care and counselling.

lilymaynard.wordpress.com/2017/10/01/my-mother-heart-bleeds/amp/

Still catching up on the thread, but this caught my eye:

Scrap the whole changing sex legally part and make Gender non conformity the protected bit - after all if you 'pass' you're not going to be discriminated against for being trans.

This would help women who don't want to wear stupid 'women's' uniforms at work which involve tights, uncomfortable high heels and skirts - they can choose the more practical men's uniform (eg Dorchester Hotel hoo-ha).

Clare - ‘genderfluid’ ‘Genderqueer’ etc absolutely DON’T subvert gender in any real and meaningful sense.
Sure, they challenge the idea that males do X and females do Y but only by creating a category of people who aren’t ‘usual’ (‘cis’) males and females but are in fact a different and special type of person.

Well, how about using "she/her" but breaking the connection that this in any way tells you anything about their personality, behaviour, expression and so on.

^^This.

"How tedious and self absorbed"

That about sums up the most of the TRAs I have encountered.

There is no fucking way I would be asking which pronoun to use at the start of every conversion. Thank fuck I am self employed. Must be fun to be a HR person at the moment

Well, how about using "she/her" but breaking the connection that this in any way tells you anything about their personality, behaviour, expression and so on.

I was away for a week when some people were writing their pronouns on their name badges: I wrote "she/they/he/it", leaving the choice to others though showing some preference. I prefer "she". I am not going to get wound up about it.

This is Mumsnet. Most people here are mums (though I'm not) and that is my guide to age of people here. I call Millennials they because I'm not one.

Pronouns, and ideas like "non-binary", embolden people to subvert gender, and are a tool to subvert gender. Gendered expectations oppress people. Surely any way of subverting gender norms or gender expectations is a good thing? You might have better ways yourself, but others find the ways that fit them.

You wonder if it might be good for whom? That's quite an assumption that no one you're talking to here is a 'millennial', not to mention a bit condescending don't you think? You keep framing it as 'us and you lot', now with the added assumption that we're all a bunch of doddering old bags with no idea what is good for us.

Self expression, great. Meet me and tell me your name is Frank or Susan and you prefer 'he' or 'she' pronouns, great. No problem whatsoever. I'll tell you my name and pronouns too if you like. However if you seriously expect a slot to discuss your current pronoun choices reflecting your special sense of self that everyone else has to respect at the start of every new conversation, on the understanding that tomorrow you may have changed your mind and expect everyone to enable that too? That is one person making themselves awfully hard work and making themselves stand out as requiring very special extra attention from everyone involved with them. Does that seem to you reasonable, bearing in mind people are reporting this experience on this thread?

@clareflourish I’m sorry but that post made almost zero sense

Sure, be name gender, be your true self but what has that got to do with anyone else and why should it matter to them?

I wonder if it might be good for you to accept Millennials specifying their pronouns and gender. Ideally, we would not be ashamed or worried at any kind of gendered behaviour, masculine or feminine, but I feel terms like "non-binary" or "gender-queer" can be used as permission. Feeling their way into behaving as they wish without recognising gendered restrictions they call themselves "non-binary" and reason that non-binary people can behave in this particular way. Some people refer to "name-gender", as in, my gender is Clare rather than any particular classification. I am wholly and idiosyncratically me. That could be narcissistic or self indulgent, or it could be a way of putting into words, and feeling ones way into reasonable self-expression.

I see the objection to hormones and surgery, and why people might campaign against that, but the words themselves could help subvert gender, and move people towards greater freedom of expression. There would be less demand for surgery.

It's just an absolute nonsense. I'm actually embarrassed for them

Yup
And surely you’d get bored of constantly asserting your pronouns to people? And forgot yourself and answer to ‘she’ and forget to answer to ‘they’? How tedious and self absorbed

I have a colleague who is gender non-binary but is biologically female and presents according to female gender stereotypes. I have been told to check for pronouns at the start of every new conversation. It feels like bullying. A really big power trip.

And it sounds exhausting.
I'd probably avoid talking to the person altogether - not out of malice nor any prejudice, but I wouldn't want to walk on egg shells worrying about getting it wrong. Am I right in saying that it's classed as 'Hate speak'? Dear God.

I'm just a regular MN'er who has reached peak trans after something caught my eye a couple of years ago. I haven't a bloody clue about the 50 or so gender types and can imagine that all these rules and legislation about 'offending' folk are so divisive and I'm weary just reading about them!

I'm a bit sick of this bull shit actually.

So many of these people are narcissistic IME.

And it can't possibly work in real life.

There was that Twitter exchange where someone trans objected to a painting/sculpture of a woman displaying her genitals, as it was triggering.

Which led to the inevitable OMG, did you just assume the model's gender?

Playing them at their own game, you would never be able to utter the word man, woman, he or she, without checking first.

And, given it can all change on a dime, every minute of every day will be taken up with checking.

And piss taking.

I actually can’t think of the last time I had to declare a preferred pronoun. My passport application, perhaps? It’s just not something that comes up in normal conversation, for boring old me, anyway.

People who use wacky pronouns must walk about sort of pre-announcing themselves and making constant declarations of their gender, yes? How very tedious for all concerned.

I have been told to check for pronouns at the start of every new conversation. It feels like bullying. A really big power trip.

It absolutely is. I'm constantly amazed people can't see it when it's as blatant as that. Your pronouns changing every five minutes, what fucking nonsense. So many of these people are narcissistic IME.

is there a point at which this starts to become self indulgent or just not realistic or reasonable?

Yes. I also see it as a way of exerting power over people. I don't want to see it further codified in law. It is and should only be a courtesy.

I have friends with teenage daughters who 'identify' as boys. They look like girls. Their lives must be an endless litany of correcting people when they misgender them.

I know someone else who identifies as non-binary and prefers the pronoun 'they/them' but they dress/look in a very stereotypically feminine way and are married to a man. They are also constantly 'misgendered' apparently

You can't possibly expect your boss or the greengrocer or the ticket office bloke on the tube to recognise you as not a woman when you look just like one.

It's just an absolute nonsense. I'm actually embarrassed for them.

I nicked this from Twitter, so it could well have been posted by one of you on there.

That's how I would construct such a law too

Random word crept in

Making gender identity a protected characteristic shouldn't lead to mandatory checking of pronouns (though I easily see organisations drawing up guidance to that effect for their staff...)

What it should mean is that it would be an offence to deliberately and with malicious intent misgender someone. Not just calling someone "sir" when they want to be called "madam", but only when they have asked to be addressed as "madam", and the offending individual refuses to do so and continues to call them "sir" in order to humiliate them. I would lobby to include "cis" as misgendering when someone has asked not to be referred to as such.

That's how I would construct such a law too.

I would also suggest that offensive words such as "tranny" and "terf" be included in the definition of hate crime, if we were to go down this route of legislation

*to whom

I agree Jellies

A friend's daughter identifies as trans/non binary and her mum put up a video for friends and family for the daughter to explain pronouns and the ones they would prefer. I thought great, very helpful, good idea.

It was about fifteen minutes long talking to camera, with a lot of description of how on one day they preferred some pronouns and on another day different pronouns and there was no conclusion or clear information at the end. They're early twenties rather than young teens. I'm afraid I was left wondering in the real world whether in the workplace there is realistically time for clients, employers and employees to all dedicate to this, and where the line was. There also didn't seem to be an implication of reciprocation: (in staff meetings I attend of 25 plus people, do we all get 15 minutes to discuss our chosen identity and pronouns, because who is to know who identifies how without asking) or is this an 'additional to and different from' that is extended to specifically self identified people who ask for it as with a disability? Where is the line here between a necessary adaptation to enable someone fair and equal opportunity and access/respect, and is there a point at which this starts to become self indulgent or just not realistic or reasonable?

I'm in education. Things are getting very tricky indeed with regards to how I talk to children during sex education (The colleague to which I refer upthread isn't school staff, but from a multi-agency). I hate it.