DEBATE NOT HATE: WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT GENDER

TO

100 Women: 'I transitioned and lost my male privilege'

I listened to (some) of this, and seems to be the recognition that after transition, people stopped asking them maths questions, or assuming they could do technical stuff. Plus calculating that to get paid the same, women need more experience, more time at college etc etc.

That women get underpaid etc etc cos we are female. Which women have been saying for ages, but this person gets all surprised because they did not realize that transitioning might mean this happening to them.

Okay, glad they are saying this, but (slightly?) annoyed that this will probably have more clout when a (former) man says it, than when only women were saying it...............Plus indicates how men, even men who were possibly non-gender conforming when they were younger (hence might have been hoped they might have some insight into the effects of gender), either didn't listen to what women were saying, or didn't care. Even when it was women in the same industry. Nope, women just got underpaid and ignored 'cos they weren't as good, not because they were women.

Actually, the more I think the more annoyed I get -- just shows how men don't listen to what women and feminists say, and have been saying for years, and only give a fig when it suddenly applies to them too cos they have transitioned................

Actual law is being changed to force all of us who reject gender identity to accept it as being primary over sex. So we will vociferously challenge ‘gender identity’ and non binary identities wherever we find it infringing on our rights and freedoms.

Well yes, this is the top and bottom of it in a nutshell. Quite why people discussing this, and how it affects everyone, is such a bad and evil thing is beyond me.

It seems to me that people who identify as non-binary are finding a way for themselves to deal with gender in society as they find it. Whether in general men are masculine and women feminine or not, that person does not conform. It is a personal thing. The person is non-binary, so projects gender as they wish, not the gender the conservative would say is right for them because of their gonads.

Gender has nothing to do with gonads. Sex does though.

This constant mixing up of sex and gender is what got us into this almighty mess in the first place!

Near every person on this earth is 'non-binary' by definition. As not many people, if any at all, are walking stereotypes of masculinity or femininity. So quite why some think 'non-binary' is anything special is beyond me. Its especially annoying when these same people insist on shoving everyone else into the ridiculous 'cis' box. Ohhh its so awful to assume someones gender, but you are cis and have no say about it even if you believe the whole notion of gender is bullshit!

What I always find amusing when TAs start their crap, is how sure they are that we 'terfs' are 'cis'. When 99 times of 100, us terfs think gender in itself is just bollocks and that we don't have a 'gender identity' at all. Which would technically make us a-gender, genderqueer, whatever.

Getting rid of 'gender' totally would help the huge majority of people. Just let people be themselves. Its really that simple. Yes a few would still exist who have sex dysphoria and that dysphoria may be alleviated somewhat by surgeries and such, and if it is, great. As long as the decision is made by an adult person and should never be presented to children as a 'cure' for being a male who likes dresses and playing with dolls, as it currently is.

Kind of wish we could all just go back to the times before the crazy. before the rabid misogynistic fetish orientated transactivists took over. Before we were expected to believe in female penises, told that cancer drugs were harmless for children, and before so many people totally lost their minds and thought it was fine to be throwing male rapists in prison with females. More and more people seem to be waking up to how batshit this whole thing is though now. I am getting hopeful that this self-identify rubbish is stopped in its tracks before it causes some serious damage.

In what way has this person lost one iota of their male privilege exactly?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-41502661/100-women-i-transitioned-and-lost-my-male-privilege

As part of the BBC 100 Women series.

100 Women: 'I transitioned and lost my male privilege'

"Male privilege" is the concept that men have certain advantages within society for no other reason than the fact they are men.

Tech entrepreneur Dr Vivienne Ming, who is transgender, discovered this in her thirties when she transitioned.

In her role as chief scientist at a tech industry recruitment firm she has also calculated the value of this advantage.

because often they know there is no point.

Yep. You do what's in front of you, you take the joy where you find it, and then the blokes wonder why once the kids are grown their wives divorce them. Fucking take a look at how she's been living. How would you feel if that was you.

Someone has to do the shitwork eh? Women don't kick against it because often they know there is no point.

Oh, and no.. most women I know are a total mix of masculine and feminine - actually like most people I know. Yet still it's the women having the babies, and the men skiving off the housework... no matter whether I describe them as 'they' or not.

What are they thinking about someone like you? Well, given that they express gender separate from sex, I hope they would assert that right for everyone, including you who say sex is a binary.

But do they? They seem to conflate gender and sex - you spoke above as non-binary gender - a personal gender, projected as you see fit, without reference to a person's sex. In my experience though, that's not what's said. They say they're non-binary sex - ie not male or female (which isn't a belief, it's how babies are made). Then they project their conservative beliefs on me - suggesting that because I know there are two sexes, that that means I'm invalidating them as non-binary.

Whereas from a plain reading, we both actually think the same way about gender - that no-one gets to tell me how to act or what to wear based on my gonads.

It's conservative to be non-binary, because you're saying that whilst you agree with me, that your sex doesn't say anything about you as a person, a non-binary conservatively still keeps the tight bond between sex and gender, and tries to declare themselves sexless (which obviously can't be true for the vast majority of people), rather than just breaking the bond and acknowledging their unchangeable sex, and throwing away the idea of gender (actually rebelling)

ClareFlourish Oh of course, women everywhere are thinking "no no, I'd absolutely never like to share the housework/caring/running around after everyone else jobs, I get so much joy from them and definitely never want men to pull their weight"

But of course, you don't mean that aspect of "femininity" do you? Shame it cannot be extricated from the one where women are pretty and decorative and playing the parts of mother or whore.

The only people that seem to get to choose the fun/decorative part of the whole "femininity" experience are the ones with penises. Us lucky "cis" women don't get a choice. And I suspect that the non-binary ones with vaginas don't actually get a choice either - they might hope they get to ID out of it, but unless they actually pass as men, not a chance.

@ClareFlourish - I've mentioned upthread the woman I know who identifies as gender non-binary. That person absolutely conforms to feminine stereotypes.

I resent the implication that I am happy with gender stereotypes - I'm not. I don't identify as a woman - I am one. I cannot - and neither can she - identify out of sex-based discrimination.

And it is such a first world luxury and it makes me extremely angry. Women are being cut and raped and sold and murdered across the world simply because they were born female. The implicit assumption behind a woman who has the luxury of saying, 'oh actually, I don't identify as a woman' is that those women who are victims of sex-based violence do identify as women. It's egregious bullshit.

Define what you mean be 'men being masculine and women feminine and liking it'.

If you mean 'OK with being called She, having a normal female body and shopping in the Women's clothing section (mostly)' then I'm quite happy with being 'feminine'.

If you mean 'wears pink frills/flaunts her curves/pays attention to her beauty regime', then I'll opt out, thanks.

I experience men being masculine and women being feminine and apparently liking it, not finding it weird or constricting at all

You’re moving in the wrong circles then.

It seems to me that people who identify as non-binary are finding a way for themselves to deal with gender in society as they find it
If only that’s what was hapoening. Actual law is being changed to force all of us who reject gender identity to accept it as being primary over sex. So we will vociferously challenge ‘gender identity’ and non binary identities wherever we find it infringing on our rights and freedoms.

@SpaghettiAndMeatballs

It seems to me that people who identify as non-binary are finding a way for themselves to deal with gender in society as they find it. Whether in general men are masculine and women feminine or not, that person does not conform. It is a personal thing. The person is non-binary, so projects gender as they wish, not the gender the conservative would say is right for them because of their gonads.

What are they thinking about someone like you? Well, given that they express gender separate from sex, I hope they would assert that right for everyone, including you who say sex is a binary.

My friend got to University and could not believe how compliant all the other women in her single sex hall of residence were. I don't know what your experience is. I experience men being masculine and women being feminine and apparently liking it, not finding it weird or constricting at all- not everyone, but a majority. And then there are people like me who find gender norms imposed on us in childhood really uncomfortable.

Pronouns, and ideas like "non-binary", embolden people to subvert gender, and are a tool to subvert gender

No they don't - a non-binary person isn't asserting that the binary doesn't exist, they're just placing themselves outside of it, and therefore implying that the rest of us are binary.

If a person says that they're a special type of non-binary person who uses 'they' pronouns, what are they thinking about someone like me? Who is totally fine with admitting that sex exists that it's a binary, that I'm a woman, and that as an English speaker, people would generally refer to me as 'she'? In what way, apart from those above, must we differ in order to justify their 'non-binary' as something other than self-indulgent snowflakery?

Thanks, and for the warning. Looks like MN zapped quickly.

A request to participate in research, something about children's books & targetting 13 year old girls for the study.

What was posted?

Reported the research link so MNHQ can check it out. After a previous poster's info about geolocation of IP addresses, stay frosty folks!

I’m right on the gen x/millennial (formerly called gen y - anyone know why that changed?) cusp. My eldest is 7 and I’ve been on mn longer than that.

There are even plenty of people at the other end of ‘millenial’ on mn.

'This is Mumsnet. Most people here are mums (though I'm not) and that is my guide to age of people here. I call Millennials they because I'm not one.'

Millenials are people currently between the ages of 32 and 17. So very many of them obviously are mums!