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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

DEBATE NOT HATE: WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT GENDER

336 replies

blackistheneworange · 24/09/2017 10:24

Sorry if this is on here already but just seen it on twitter.

It's this Wednesday in Brighton which may be too short notice for me but you can book here. www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/debate-not-hate-we-need-to-talk-about-gender-tickets-38129665857/amp

OP posts:
AdalindSchade · 28/09/2017 22:20

I was there! @datun someone has told me which one you are although you won’t have noticed me as I didn’t answer a question. I was sitting close to the bloke who was filming on the opposite side to you.
It was bloody fantastic. Although on the relative anonymity of mumsnet can I have a collective cringe with you at VA’s horribly embarrassing moment? I know it could have been a lot worse but the sharp intakes of breath were deafening!

PencilsInSpace · 28/09/2017 22:12

Tl;dr -

  • we need case law
  • we need to heavily plug sex as a protected characteristic under EA
  • any change in law that's proposed should not be looked at in isolation. EA and GRA interact and between them there are numerous gotchas and ways women can be totally fucked over.

Women Analysing Policy On Women blog is a great source on this.

PencilsInSpace · 28/09/2017 22:05

Datun - So you can't discriminate against somebody on the basis of them being trans, as it's a protected characteristic. But could you refuse them entry into a woman's only space, say, on the basis that they are biological men? Citing the fact that you would include a transman, therefore it's not about being trans?

At the moment you can exclude transwomen (with a GRC or the intention to get one) from female only services if you can show it's a 'proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim'. Orgs are supposed to decide this on a case-by-case basis and be able to objectively justify it. here's the explanatory note for the relevant paragraph (Schedule 3, part 7, para 28.).

The Trans Equality Report recommends getting rid of this exception for any transwoman who has a GRC (para 132). The report also recommends changes to the GRA so that to get a GRC you basically just need to sign a form and send off the fee (para. 45). These are the changes that are being consulted on this autumn. This will be a govt. bill, not a private member's bill. As such, it's far more likely to become law than Miller's gender identity bill of last year.

So joining the dots, if both of these recommendations were passed into law, women's services would be powerless to exclude any male with £140 and the ability to sign his name.

The legislation is sex-neutral. It refers to single-sex services and excluding transexual people. There's nothing specific in there to guide on whether it would be currently legal to include transmen but not transwomen in female only services. The legislation was written at a time when there weren't many transmen at all and before the activism really got going. I doubt that specific scenario ever occurred to anybody.

This is the sort of thing that case law determines. A court could decide it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim to have a group/service/space for people with female sexed bodies and that this could legitimately include transmen but exclude transwomen. Or they could decide that by including transmen it's not a single sex service at all and we have to let all men in.

Transwomen without a GRC and not intending or in the process of getting one are currently not protected and can be excluded from women only services, along with any non-binary, genderqueer etc. men who temporarily feel a bit feminine. The Trans Equality Report recommends changing the protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment' to 'gender identity' which would make it harder to exclude all of the above (paras 17-20). This was the basis of Miller's bill last year that ran out of time. The exact wording of that bill was never published. It'll be back, I have no doubt, and will be based on these recommendations.

The added snags are:

  • There's provision in the GRA that makes it illegal to disclose that someone is trans if you've obtained that knowledge in a professional capacity.
  • It would probably count as discrimination (harrassment) under the EA to ask someone if they have a GRC or intend getting one. In fact there's a whole nother section in that bloody report that refers to that specifically, but I don't have the ref to hand.

So the vast majority of people who want to keep their job/not be taken to court, especially in the public sector and any third sector org. reliant on funding from the public sector (many! most of the orgs now providing vital services), daren't question anyone anyway.

The criminal justice system still gets to see and make decisions based on proper documents but everyone else is going out on a limb if they want to challenge this.

ohyesiknowwhatyoumean · 28/09/2017 14:30

I've read The morning star article - clear factual reporting of what some of the key issues are. I'm impressed tbh.

Datun · 28/09/2017 12:28

The Morning Star has covered yesterday's talk. Fairly neutral.

morningstaronline.co.uk/a-d609-Gender-law-goes-under-the-lens#.WczcVH_TXYW

TheWeeWitch · 27/09/2017 22:27

Well, Datun, I left The Grand feeling that if my boys grow up to be anything like your DS I’ll be a very happy mummy.

What a shame we didn’t connect Down. I’d have loved to have chatted with you too. I didn’t know which person was Lily Maynard, but it was great to chat with Helen Saxby and others. All of those I spoke to (including all three main presenters) had really great things to say about us MNers and our feminism discussions! A pat on the back to all of you for keeping these discussions alive and exposing new MNers to the issues every day.

As Datun has also** said, I was disturbed and heartened in equal measure by Stephanie’s points about children and young people and what is (or is going to be) happening in schools. Disturbed because this new “normal” is being imposed on young people but heartened that there are people like Stephanie working hard to debunk it all, help people and spread knowledge. It was all very inspiring!

I wonder all the time about what I can ever really do about any of this (and Trump, Brexit, fascism... etc., obvs!) IRL, but today has made me determined to take Julia Long’s advice to go back to see my MP in person to talk her through all of this, and to ask to see our LA and the head at my child’s school to ask about their policies and copies of any related materials they have.

Datun · 27/09/2017 22:24

Thanks Pencils.

In the back of my mind, I do remember reading a case in either the US or Canada, where there was an issue over custody of child who presented as trans, but the parents refuted it. I don't know if it went the distance, but I think there was discussion around it.

The other thing I wanted to ask about the EA was this.

So you can't discriminate against somebody on the basis of them being trans, as it's a protected characteristic. But could you refuse them entry into a woman's only space, say, on the basis that they are biological men? Citing the fact that you would include a transman, therefore it's not about being trans?

PencilsInSpace · 27/09/2017 21:22

They won't get a certificate, but they will still identify as the opposite sex.

Yes, or any other 'gender' they want to identify as.

Could the school and the parent go head-to-head on the gender identity of the child, and how to treat that?

Yes they could. I don't know how this would play out in the courts if a school and parents went head to head. We do need some case law around the whole topic IMO but it's an incredibly hard thing to ask of anybody to be that case.

Once something's in the EA as a protected characteristic it's illegal to discriminate against anyone because of that characteristic. The law applies to anyone/any company or org. offering goods, services, housing, employment etc. to the public and both adults and children are protected.

In addition to the requirements of the EA, the public sector (schools etc.) has to satisfy the 'public sector equality duty' which basically means they have to not only not discriminate against you but they have to acticively think about how to prevent discrimination in the way they serve the public. They have to have policies and do impact assessments, 'advance equality' and 'foster good relationships' between those who share a protected characteristic and those who don't (Maria Miller and women & equalities committee failed miserably on that and could probably be challenged in court)

Discrimination is not just treating someone less favourably, it includes harrassment which is things like offending people or causing them to feel distressed or intimidated.

That's what the activists would use.

Datun · 27/09/2017 20:32
  • could the scenario
Datun · 27/09/2017 20:32

As gender identity does not require legal change of gender (or intention to legally change) there would be no age limit on this.

Right. So given that schools are now being encouraged, if not compelled, to affirm gender identity, put the scenario that I outlined happen?

They won't get a certificate, but they will still identify as the opposite sex.

Could the school and the parent
go head-to-head on the gender identity of the child, and how to treat that?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 27/09/2017 20:13

No, it was in the same hotel where party conference stuff was happening Smile

Terfing · 27/09/2017 20:08

Armed security? What for? Surely not for the TRAs?

DamsonGin · 27/09/2017 19:50

Thank you very much for the update, will look out for the video link and if anything occurs up north in the future.

PencilsInSpace · 27/09/2017 19:46

I'm so pleased to hear this went well! How many people went, do you reckon? Was there anyone there from the pro-trans-agenda side?

I'm really looking forward to seeing any videos.

But if there is anyone who can unravel the legal implications of this aspect, I'd be really glad if they can analyse this.

IANAL but my understanding is:

  • they want to lower the age limit for legal change of gender to 16, not do away with the age limit altogether. This would be a change to the GRA and part of what's being consulted on this Autumn.
  • they want to change the protected characteristic from 'gender reassignment' to 'gender identity' in the EA. This was Miller's bill from last year that ran out of time. I don't for a second believe we've seen the last of it. As gender identity does not require legal change of gender (or intention to legally change) there would be no age limit on this.

So I think she's right, but it would be a change to the EA not the GRA that would bring this about.

cheesetoast · 27/09/2017 19:37

Please do post any links to transcripts/films or links to this talk. Wish I could have been there. Thank you.

Datun · 27/09/2017 19:01

... and yes, till the next time! Wine

Datun · 27/09/2017 19:00

I thoroughly enjoyed it pronouns. These things are never long enough. Because the Q&A is what really gets people going.

People's personal experience, and/or professional knowledge starts a ripple of discourse that I, personally, would like to see played out a bit longer.

There is no doubt, that one of two questions certainly gave me a fresh aspect to think about.

And whilst I found it fascinating, I was increasingly getting that, now familiar, chilling feeling.

DJBaggySmalls · 27/09/2017 18:59

Datun WTF - How are they getting away with letting that one slip in under the radar?

DownWithPronouns · 27/09/2017 18:26

Yes! I think we talked about MPs briefly at the door. Gosh, isn't Lily amazing? And all of you! 😮❤️ I'm so glad I went, it was a real privilege to hang out with you all.

I've got loads more to learn, so see you at the next one 💃

Datun · 27/09/2017 18:16

Depending on where you were, yes. With DS and Lily Maynard?

Can't believe we didn't say hello!

DownWithPronouns · 27/09/2017 18:03

Witches and Datun
Witches, you're the coolest to bring your baby, so gorgeous.
Datun, I think I know who you are too, did you stay after for a bit at the table on the right?

Datun · 27/09/2017 17:12

Oh, and witches baby is gorgeous! I went quite gooey. But then so did my son, so it can't be innate!!!

Grin
Datun · 27/09/2017 17:06

Just got back. Brilliant talk. So glad to have met TheWeeWitch. .

There was no trouble. Although the four guards outside armed to the teeth, might had something to do with that. Personally, I think the TRAs have woken up to the fact that violence is very bad press.

Talks were fascinating. Seeing these issues raised with women who have different sets of interests within them, all feminist, and with in-depth knowledge, was really useful.

Stephanie Davies Arai runs Transgendertrend and is particularly concerned over the effect on children.

She raised a chilling aspect of this is that hadn't occurred to me.

Currently, under the criteria to obtain a gender recognition certificate, you have to be over 18.

This part of the criteria, along with all the rest, will be dispensed with if they change the law. And they are wanting to change the protected characteristic from gender reassignment, to gender identity.

The effect of this will be that there is no lower age to identifying as the opposite sex. And it's protected.

She sees a situation where a five-year-old claims they are the opposite sex and the school have to affirm that, despite what the parents say. Because it's a protected characteristic.

I'll let that sink in.

Parental control over whether your child is viewed as transgender or not will be eliminated.

She also sees it as being used as a massive stick in a custody battle.

Women being blackmailed by a partner who can use this against them.

Stephanie is very switched on about everything to do with children and trans. Her website was set up to help parents of children who have gender dysphoria.

But if there is anyone who can unravel the legal implications of this aspect, I'd be really glad if they can analyse this.

Blanchefleur · 27/09/2017 16:39

Thanks for the updates, I look forward to seeing the recording. Do you have a link for the mailing list so I can sign up, please?

TheWeeWitch · 27/09/2017 13:55

They said the film of today will certainly be available online. I’ve joined the mailing list, I’m sure that it will be shared widely by the presenters and organisers.

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