DEBATE NOT HATE: WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT GENDER

Thanks witch The third link worked for me, in the end.

clareflourish.wordpress.com/2016/08/21/female-embodiment-fantasies/

Here is Clare’s link Datun.

claire, can you explain why you think women would welcome men who fetishise the idea of being a woman into their spaces?

And no, women don't have it. It's a male fetish. Women do not fantasise about being women, because they are women.

claire

Your link didn't work for me, I'm afraid. Could you try it a different way?

Transition angers those who wish to enforce gender roles.

Could you explain this? I see it as the opposite. Transitioning encourages gender roles.

Please do not take away my lifeline before we can create a better way.

I'd love to create a better way. What are your suggestions?

Oh gawd. I should use the preview.

"Female embodiment fantasies" explains better.

clareflourish.wordpress.com/2016/08/21/female-embodiment-fantasies/

I have learned something about links.

"Female embodiment clareflourish.wordpress.com/2016/08/21/female-embodiment-fantasies/" explains the phenomenon better than "autogynephilia".

Thank you for the responses.

This is the way I took, in order to survive. I wish society were otherwise. There are challenges to gender norms and renewed pressure to enforce them.

"Autogynephilic men". I feel embodiment fantasies [[https://clareflourish.wordpress.com/2016/08/21/female-embodiment-fantasies/]] describes the phenomenon better. We don't do this for sex kicks. I took testosterone suppressants before I transitioned.

Should women lose out to accommodate "these men"? Many women accept and welcome me. Can it be more than a zero-sum game?

any compromise that may originally have been possible, has now been shot to bits with the advent of violent, sexually motivated men appropriating your issue.

I don't know whether you would call me sexually motivated. I doubt anyone is wholly sexually motivated. My cross-dressing friend once spent a whole week cross-dressed, and by the end he was heartily sick of it. Videoing people is not provocation. Hitting people is wrong. And I am not violent. Can reasonable people talk together and find a way forward?

Transition angers those who wish to enforce gender roles. They see it as subverting gender roles. I want things better for everyone.

Transition was my lifeline. Please do not take away my lifeline before we can create a better way.

I think a lot of women including (especially) radical feminists understand very well why some men want to identify out of masculinity. And logically I suppose that means they identify into femininity. The problem is that man==masculine and woman==feminine. Being a feminine man is not being a woman. Yet this is the new orthodoxy of the transgender movement.

Clare There is a lot of overlap between radical feminism and your position. You'll find that gender critical feminists do exactly what they say on the tin - we dislike gender norms as much as you do.

What you describe is a perfectly normal way of being a man. Some men are 'feminine'. Sometimes overwhelmingly, obviously 'feminine' in the same way that some women are overwhelmingly, obviously 'feminine'. There is nothing wrong or weird about being a feminine man.

But being a feminine man doesn't make a person actually female. Which is why I think that men should be looking to make sure that feminine men are accepted within their ranks.

'If we could be tolerated as a temporary anomaly'
You know, this is exactly what has happened up until now. Women have often tolerated trans women in female spaces as a courtesy. The proposed difference now is that we will be obliged by law to accept anyone in our spaces who declares themselves to be female. This is simply unacceptable.

Have you come across the YouTuber peachyoghurt? Check her out if you haven't. She is a very masculine woman and speaks with great wisdom on this topic.

Yes exactly @Datun

People like Miranda Yardley and my brother will always have the support and empathy of women because they are openly respectful and they genuinely just want things to be better for everyone.

I just want to add, that it is entirely possible to be a feminine transwoman while still maintaining that you are biologically male and staying out of women's spaces.

The irony is that the men who do that, get far more support from women. The very act of them understanding women's problems, makes women feel far more empathetic and 'sisterly' towards them. Their 'femininity' comes across as genuine, discourse settles into recognisable and familiar patterns. Acrimony is nowhere to be seen. Threat is absent.

TheWeeWitch

I believe so. Whilst I have every sympathy, it becomes meaningless, as soon as the rights and safety of women and girls are threatened.

I can sympathise, feel compassion, and understand how gender is making this happen.

But I will never agree to the definition of women changing to include men as a solution.

exexpat

No it wasn't that one. Although I did follow that at the time. Thankfully the judge was very sensible. He was also the foremost expert on trans law. So he knew what he was talking about. (Mermaids calling him ignorant just made them look silly and exposed their real agenda).

The case I was thinking of happened in America. If fact I think there were two.

I haven't searched again online, because I have 'google fatigue' at the moment over this issue.

And yes @BeyondNoone , it seems that from what @ClareFlourish is saying that she feels that perhaps the laws should stay as they are...?

ClareFlourish

It's incredibly sad and damaging that you couldn't express yourself as a non-masculine man, without transitioning.

And it's fantastic that you recognise the restrictions of gender roles as the root cause.

Both the paragraphs above align perfectly with radical feminism.

Where it parts ways is saying that in order to express yourself in the way you want, you have to assert that you are the opposite sex.

I realise that this was the only way for you to do it, though.

But it doesn't stop the profound disagreement with it.

All it does is reinforce gender roles, instead of deconstructing them.

Historically this is far more damaging to women that is to men. The roles for all women are detrimental and lead to subordination, whereas for men, they lead to domination. Although, I do understand that, in your case, the masculinity expected of you, was detrimental. Indeed, toxic masculinity is detrimental to all men.

Gender roles are damaging for everyone, but are worse for women.

Radical feminists would be delighted if men started to discard their expected roles and allowed their 'femininity' to flourish.

So although I understand why you need to identify as the opposite sex in order to do this, I don't understand why discussion about it it's not viewed as positive. Unless yours is a minority view.

I see a lot of the vitriol and determination to shut down debate being reinforced by autogynephilic men. I can readily understand how exposing this side of it is very threatening to them. And they find allies everywhere, there is a particular kind of resentment reserved for women amongst this cohort.

So, there are definitely areas of agreement from what you say. But unfortunately, any compromise that may originally have been possible, has now been shot to bits with the advent of violent, sexually motivated men appropriating your issue.

Yes quite @BigDeskBob

My brother is a feminine seeming, very much visibly “out” gay man. He’s lived with verbal abuse and prejudice - predominantly from other men, of course - throughout his life and has recently said (in relation to me discussing these issues with him) that he doubts it would be any better for him if he had happened to feel the need to trans. People who are bigoted and abusive to people who deviate from “normal” will abuse any and all who threaten their world view. He holds his head high and lives his life as he sees fit without ever asking anything more than acceptance of anyone. Asking women to move over and make way is not any part of a viable solution.

@datun - is this the case you were thinking of? Mother was bringing son up as a trans-girl, father and others thought she was imposing her own ideas on the child, who is now living with his father as a boy again? I have a feeling Mermaids were involved in advising the mother, and were eventually banned from participating in the case.

www.communitycare.co.uk/2016/10/27/judge-calls-review-social-work-response-boy-lived-girl/

There are lots of other press reports if you google (some more biased than others...), and the full judgement is here: www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2016/2430.html

Hi clare
I just wanted to ask if you are happy with the law as it stands on GR?
Cause if you are, I wondered why you feel women meeting to talk about the change in that law is “repressive”?

Its sad that MTT don't feel that they can wear whatever they like and still think of themselves as men. But I don't see why women have to be the ones that solve the problem? Why does the definition of female, woman and girl change to accommodate these men? Does the need for women only facilities disappear because such men exist? Why does the comfort of MTT override the comfort and safety of women and girls?

Ah. Italic text fail. Sorry.

Hello Clare. Thank you for your post, I agree with what you say and am almost certain that most rational people feel as you do about gender and kids. As you say here -

“If a boy goes to school in a dress, or a girl wants to be known by a male name, let them, without the school needing to say the child is trans”

Well, exactly. The trouble is that there are aggressive moves to push “transing” (puberty blockers, then surgery etc.) on young people who display what are perfectly natural set of behaviours in what is essentially being a bit different^ from how one is supposed to be. There is another thread here at the moment with links to materials that Mermaids and GIRES are putting into schools. It is terrifying to think that children and young people are being taught that their body is wrong instead of being given the tools,^ resilience and confidence to express themselves as they see fit.

When you say -

“I would not have transitioned if I could be myself as a man”

I feel terribly sad that you feel so strongly that you can’t be who you are without changing who you are, and I hope that you have now found affirmation from those around you and happiness in your life. I firmly believe, though, that decisions such a the ones you have made should be made in adulthood rather than as a child or adolescent.

Hi @ClareFlourish I think we are on the same side here.
I don't have much time to reply to your whole post but I think you might be pleasantly surprised at how much you have in common with radical feminism (which is totally accepting of transwomen, in my opinion)

Hello. I am a trans woman.

There are not many of us with GRCs. Why would anyone want one? I wanted it because I live permanently as a woman, my driving licence and passport indicate I am female, I have worked for years expressing myself female, I would never force myself on lesbians but I have actually had a relationship with a woman who identifies as lesbian.

So, why would I live as a woman? Because I could not bear the prescription for masculinity enforced by society. I am "feminine". Transition enabled me to begin to accept my body as beautiful, my personality as beautiful rather than weak, sick, perverted, disgusting, ridiculous and deluded.

I meet women who are not "feminine" in this way: a wide variety of women repressed by gender norms, who would never consider transition. The gender norms are the problem, affecting trans folk and a wide spectrum of other people.

My own solution, which the legal changes encourage, is to make this a much less big deal. If a boy goes to school in a dress, or a girl wants to be known by a male name, let them, without the school needing to say the child is trans. People are people. If little girls want astronaut or dinosaur t-shirts, why not?

The real problem is the conservative enforcement of gender norms. That is why I transitioned. I would not have transitioned if I could be myself as a man.

As society is, people transition. We will continue to do so while the gender norms exist. We are traumatised by the experience of trying to fit them. Transition is liberation. We experience events like that one at Brighton as repressive, trying to shut us out of the only way of being ourselves which society tolerates, just as the extreme conservatives would. Ideally we would not need to transition but we are a symptom and not a cause of the problem, which is the gender norms. If we could be tolerated as a temporary anomaly we would be allies with the radical feminists against the status quo.

It is tragic that feminists and trans people are combating each other when the real problem is the gender norms. I condemn hitting a woman in the face.

I go into women's toilets. I queue patiently, use a cubicle quietly, wash my hands and go. I like to think I am not a huge problem. You might not want me there but am I really worth all this trouble? I hope, if I needed it, a rape crisis centre or refuge could find some space for me. I hope never to need it.

How can children be able to express cross-gender behaviour in exploration and play without it being such a big deal?

pencils

Thanks for that. It looks like women's hands are being tied, no matter what. And culturally things have leapt ahead of the law anyway.

People much cleverer than me have nailed it though and will drill down into the details, thank God for them.

I will have a read of your links, so I have it firmly in my head. Thank you for that.

Hi Adalind. Next time I go to a meeting, I am going to wear a badge saying Mumnet Massive. We can't keep getting these opportunities to meet in real life slip through our fingers!

Datun
In the back of my mind, I do remember reading a case in either the US or Canada, where there was an issue over custody of child who presented as trans, but the parents refuted it. I don't know if it went the distance, but I think there was discussion around it.

There was a similar case in the UK last year, with social services threatening to take a child into care.
www.itv.com/news/2016-10-24/parents-and-social-services-clash-over-future-of-transgender-teen/

It's worrying that the authorities can take over like this when parents are just trying to do what's best for their children.