DEBATE NOT HATE: WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT GENDER

I know smarties. I'm hoping it's not real. But I have seen enough grim stuff to wonder.

Hurray!

Datun, that message
Fucking hell.

Kvinne

I'm going to try and make it. PM me with the pub name if you know it.

Yay!

Kvinne

Thanks for that. Let me see if I can do it.

It's at the Conway Hall (near Holborn), starts at 6.30pm
Tickets are on Eventbrite: www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/the-pimping-of-prostitution-abolishing-the-sex-work-myth-tickets-36801615623
We're meeting for drinks before at a pub nearby from 5.30-ish

Kvinne

Someone else just ask me this! I wasn't intending to, but to be honest, I haven't paid it much attention. I hate to ask but where is it, and what time?

Datun, are you coming to the Julie Bindel book lunch tomorrow? It'd be fab to meet you in person.

Meanwhile this is the sort of shit that we are now having to counter.

Whoever thinks these people will not exploit the upcoming law is dangerous.

Which is kind of how PIE tried to get their foot in the door as well, by positing themselves as just another sexual orientation.......

Paedophile activists are trying to pull this one again.

Changing the subject, I wonder how many influential middle class, middle aged men are secret cross dressers.

And now you will never know. Because they're all transgender, if they acknowledge it at all.

*too

I've wondered that to

"What I find baffling is how a group of people who are supposedly the most fragile, vulnerable and persecuted in our society have been able to change that society so radically and so quickly."

Also, how few trans people there are.

Changing the subject, I wonder how many influential middle class, middle aged men are secret cross dressers.

So far all I've heard from transmen has been the party line. There seems to be a fair bit of cognitive dissonance going on.

I'd also like to hear more from transmen. They seem to be the group missing from the debate

I am possibly becoming a mental old gimmer- but I am becoming to believe more and more strongly that this is an anti-gay/ pro conversion plot.

There was a great joke by a stand up - which basically said; 'Don't like me fancying men, Dad? I'll become transgender and shag all the hunky men I want!'.

I think it's also because I saw a programme on how gay men are treated in Iran- the country with the most ahem positive attitude towards trans surgery.

www.samaritans.org/sites/default/files/kcfinder/files/Suicide_statistics_report_2017_Final.pdf

This is good reading if you need a good grounding in suicide statistics and how they are interpreted.

Terrylene, those are some really interesting thoughts!

Yes, I was never that behind the some people just are gay (they were born like that and can't help it so leave them alone) line in the first place, even though it was effective from a legislative point of view. But as I think I said the other day, that stance itself removes the whole essential threat to the patriarchy that lesbian feminists and the gay liberation movement were on about in the dim and distant past. By making sexual orientation an innate and essential character, you remove the threat that things like political lesbianism posed (was there ever an equivalent idea amongst gay men does anyone know?). Which is kind of how PIE tried to get their foot in the door as well, by positing themselves as just another sexual orientation.......

Probably not a coincidence that Julie Bindel who in her previous book, as I recall, said she chose her lesbianism, also sees through the whole trans 'innate gender' nonsense.

Yes, indeed, Bertrand. Historically, when a marginalised group has attempted to bring about a specific change that brings them rights normally associated with the dominant group, it has involved decades of struggle and repression. Often the repression has been done physically, with the full force of the State. Civil rights in the US... apartheid in SA... suffragists in the UK... decriminalisation of homosexual acts in the UK... Yet all those groups have been a much bigger proportion of the population than trans people.

In all the above struggles, a marginalised group wanted to acquire rights and resources that already belonged to a dominant group. I wonder what the difference here might be?

That's something I keep wondering- cui bono?

Some of it is similar to PIE in the 70s. There must be a lot of other well funded groups riding on the back of this.

A lot of the media campaign of normalising trans gender demands in society is what Stonewall did throughout the 90s and 00s. They must have picked up the suicide thing from somewhere else. Otherwise, why they are so intent on sticking with the bad statistics. Other responsible pressure groups would have had this thoroughly researched and would be careful as to the effects of publicising it.

What I find baffling is how a group of people who are supposedly the most fragile, vulnerable and persecuted in our society have been able to change that society so radically and so quickly.......

They seem to use the more successful campaigns of other groups in a sort of pick and mix. So we have the force it through like gay marriage because people will go with it and it is just the same. We have the 'it's how people are born and they have always known it' thread of the 50 years since legalising homosexuality, and we have the early intervention books etc to explain it because brains are differently wired of the campaigning for help for children with autism related disorders.

Yes, what current interventionalist practice is depriving children of, as well as the physical and psychological harm that it seems to be causing some (many?) children is very concerning.

It's something about playing the long game and supporting them to find their way through, rather than setting them on a path which, potentially, is surrounded by very high walls, preventing them from seeing other options.