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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I am Janice Turner's No 1 fan - another excellent article

538 replies

Stopmakingsense · 23/09/2017 07:19

This one picks up in particular the huge rise in women identifying as men, and the increasing inability of anyone being able to question it:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/even-asking-questions-is-now-transphobic-ztk3rlrfk?shareToken=1f64a5116171eb54a9a866590e6432ec

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ErrolTheDragon · 01/10/2017 15:59

Todays Sunday Times piece - report on the private schools' Heads conference . They've not all drunk the kool-aid.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-fluid-girl-boards-with-boys-zv90hk5bp?shareToken=9b0718bf7801fff6eb5715249dca8894

MillicentFawcett · 01/10/2017 15:24

Funny, that Hmm

Did you know that there is a transwoman on the list of 60 women that the BBC has already chosen on its list of 100 women? I wonder how many of the remaining 40 places will also go to men sorry, transwomen?

ErrolTheDragon · 01/10/2017 15:18

Its very odd... I haven't heard of any transmen winning specifically male awards yet.ConfusedHmm

cheesetoast · 01/10/2017 15:15

Just caught up with thread, the Jo Cox award?!?! Please could I come along to Shady Pines? I make a proper Whiskey Sour.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 01/10/2017 15:02

It is possible that they're worried about violent protesters after what happened in London?

Blanchefleur · 01/10/2017 14:40

The co-president of the group said "I too believe in freedom of expression"

Erm. no. No, you clearly don't.

"The welfare of our students has to come first."

Except lesbians, obviously. Has anyone told this co-president that she is being homophobic?

Igneococcus · 01/10/2017 14:19

The co-president of the group said "I too believe in freedom of expression, however Peterhouse is as much a home as it is a college. The welfare of our students has to come first."

I know I'm old and from a country where students are a bit older on average when they get first to university but I would have been either outraged or highly amused if anyone would have suggested I would need protection from opinions different to mine.

TalkingintheDark · 01/10/2017 12:57

I fear we've a long way to go yet. Just seen Linda Bellos has been no platformed by the Beard society at Peterhouse College, Cambridge University.

The Beard Society is "a new platform within Peterhouse for the discussion of feminism and the role of women in modern society." But it's yet another women's group purporting to be feminist but centring males.

No platformed for saying she would be "publicly questioning some of the trans politics... which seem to assert the power of those previously designated male to tell lesbians, and especially lesbian feminists, what to say and think."

The co-president of the group said "I too believe in freedom of expression, however Peterhouse is as much a home as it is a college. The welfare of our students has to come first."

Not much of a home for any gender critical feminists/lesbians then. Zero concern for their welfare. And this idea that GC feminist discourse is actually harmful, that hearing it would be like being locked in a room and forced to inhale asbestos - when the real harm is being done TO WOMEN - Jesus, I just don't have words.

BUT having said all that, of course it's great to see that there is definitely a shift in the tone of reporting on the issue, in a wider sense.

YesVeryGoodVeryStrong · 01/10/2017 12:56

Thanks for sharing busy.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2017 12:14

That was fucking brilliant. Is the Emperor about to have his nakedness revealed? It is so interesting that since the incident at speakers' corner that so many people are beginning to speak up.

busyboysmum · 01/10/2017 12:03

five years ago, Professor Miroslav Djordjevic, the world-leading genital reconstructive surgeon, received a visit at his Belgrade clinic: a transgender person who had undergone surgery at different clinic to remove male genitalia - and since changed their mind.

That was the first time Prof Djordjevichad ever been contacted to perform a so-called gender reassignment “reversal” surgery. Over the next six months, another six people also approached him, similarly wanting to reverse their procedures. They came from countries all over the western world, Britain included, united by an acute sense of regret.

At present, Prof Djordjevichas a further six prospective people in discussions with his clinic about reversals and two currently undergoing the process itself; reattaching the male genitalia is a complex procedure and takes several operations over the course of a year to fully complete (at a cost of some €18,000).

Professor Miroslav DjordjevicCREDIT: NYTNS

Those wishing to reverse theirgender reassignment, Prof Djordjevicsays, have spoken to him about experiencing crippling levels of depression following their transition and in some cases even contemplated suicide. “It can be a real disaster to hear these stories,” says the 52-year-old.

And yet, in the main part, they are not being heard.

Last week, it was alleged thatBath Spa Universityhas turned down an application for research on gender reassignment reversal because it was a subject deemed “potentially politically incorrect”. James Caspian, a psychotherapist who specialises in working with transgender people, suggested the research after a conversation with Prof Djordjevicin 2014 at a London restaurant where the Serbian told him about the number of reversals he was seeing, and the lack of academic rigour on the subject.

According to Caspian, the university initially approved his proposal to research “detransitioning”. He then amassed some preliminary findings that suggested a growing number of young people – particularly young women – who were transitioning their gender and then regretting it.

rof Djordjevicfears money is at the root of the problem, and says his reversal patients have told him about making initial enquiries to surgeries and simply being asked to send a cheque in return.

“I have heard stories of people visiting surgeries who only checked if they had the money to pay,” he says. “We have to stop this. As a community, we have to make very strong rules: nobody who wants to make this type of surgery or just make money can be allowed to do so.”

To date, all of his reversals have been transgender women aged over 30 wanting to restore their male genitalia. Over the last two decades, the average age of his patients has more than halved, from 45 years old to 21. While the World Professional Association for Transgender Health guidelines currently state nobody under the age of 18 should undergo surgery, Prof Djordjevicfears this age limit could soon be reduced to include minors.

Were that to happen, he says, he would refuse to abide by the rules. “I’m afraid what will happen five to 10 years later with this person,” he says. “It is more than about surgery; it’s an issue of human rights. I could not accept them as a patient because I’d be afraid what would happen to their brain and mind.”

Referrals to adult andchild genderidentity clinics in the UK have increased dramatically over the past 10 years. In April, the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust, the only clinic for adolescents in England, reported 2,016 referrals to its gender identity development service, a 42 per cent increase compared to the previous year, which in itself marked a 104 per cent increase on the year before that.

The clinic stresses the majority of its young referrals do not end up receiving physical treatment through the service. While NHS guidelines state young people should not be givencross-sex hormone treatmentuntil 16, concerns have been raised about the lack of regulation particularly in the private sector.

Earlier this month, it was revealed a Monmouthshire MP, Dr Helen Webberley, was being investigated by the General Medical Council (GMC), following complaints from two GPs that she had treated children as young as 12 with hormones at her private clinic, which specialises in gender issues.

Referrals to adult and child gender clinics have increased dramaticallyCREDIT: E+

Dr Webberley insists she has done nothing wrong, and there were no “decisions or judgements” made on the claims against her. “There are many children under 16 who are desperate to start what they would consider their natural puberty earlier than that,” she said earlier this month.

Prof Djordjevicfeels differently, and admits he has deep reservations about treating children with hormonal drugs before they reach puberty – not least as by blocking certain hormones before they have sufficiently developed means they may find it difficult to undergo reassignment surgery in the future.

“Ethically, we have to help any person over the world starting from three to four years of age, but in the best possible way,” he says. “If you change general health with any drug, I’m not a supporter of that theory.”

These are profoundly life-changing matters around which he – like many in his industry – feel far better debate is required to promote new understanding.

But at the moment, it seems, that debate is simply being shut down.

qumquat · 01/10/2017 11:42

You can register to read the Telegraph article. It doesn't appear to cost anything just wants you to register.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2017 11:39

*It's mainly been middle-class, white men who have told me to 'check my privilege' as a woman

Have you ever tried asking them for lessons since clearly they ought to be experts*

Back to this - it's usually been when I have made a claim about women being denied something in some way, or me not having access to something. For example, once I was asked if I was attending a super-expensive conference and I said 'no' I did not have the resources - cue long rant about how I was a wealthy middle-class white woman in comparison to women from nation x, etc.

I think that white, middle-class men love intersectionality and trans because it is a stick they can beat women with. I've never seen them challenge men over things, just women, and we are always reminded of women (or trans) or sometimes men, less fortunate than us. It boils down to 'know your place, bitch'.

It's the same with a BME man I used to work with. He was always on about how white people (mainly women) should check their privilege in different ways and yet he was incredibly sexist - but no one dared to point this out.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/10/2017 11:12

It looks to be behind a paywall, does the telegraph allow any shareable links?

Butterymuffin · 01/10/2017 11:01

Anyone seen this in the Telegraph?

www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/gender-reversal-surgery-rise-arent-talking/amp/

It's about people who've had trans surgery but then regret it and ask for reversals. Lots of interesting points from the clinician who deals with them. Plus reference to 'the powerful transgender lobby'. Another good questioning piece calling for more debate.

SummerflowerXx · 30/09/2017 21:48

Please can I come to Shady Pines and hide?? Autistic DS is singing Despacito repetitively and refusing to go to sleep. He doesn’t even speak Spanish.

PencilsInSpace · 30/09/2017 20:51

Isn't Florida a bit sweaty? I love the sound of Shady Pines (sign me up for 'fermentation' and 'scrabble') but I don't cope well with heat. Do they have a franchise in the lake district or somewhere nice like that?

Lancelottie · 30/09/2017 18:52

Hold on a minute, Xennophon. I get what you are saying, but gender is not a biological fact. Sex is the biological fact.

ALittleBitOfButter · 30/09/2017 18:41

Thanks to the person who explained callouts. That feels very important info, and should be disseminated somehow.

xennophon · 30/09/2017 17:52

I posted the following on another thread. But it is relevant here too, if you interested in preventing the Department of Education in their colossally self-satisfied virtue-signalling 'politically-correct - motivated frenzy from corrupting if not destroying the innocence of your so well loved primary school children:
'There is a huge danger here for every parent with a child in primary school. Justine Greening, herself a member of LGBT, is trying to indoctrinate children compulsorily with relationship classes, which will include the 'information' that changing gender is normal and easy so why don't you try it? She is caving in to every demand from the trans activists. If a child shows any interest in the toys or games or clothes usually associated with the other sex they will be invited to 'transition', which will probably lead in due course to hormone drug therapy and possible surgery. Sane medical voices urging restraint and therapy are to be silenced as 'transphobic'.I have told her that she will brainwash my 4-year-old daughter over my dead body. Parents, beware! Some schools are already inviting students to dress as for whatever gender, or one , they choose. This is the madness of 'true gender', a lunatic concept invented by the trans lobby whereby gender is no longer a biological fact but a notion in the head. Compassion and respect for trans people, yes, definitely, but at the same time recognise that rejecting one's body and saying 'I am really the opposite gender to what I was born with' is dysfunctional (that is why the pathology is called 'gender identity disorder'). Greening, in a fog of horrid 'political correctness' is determined, ISIL-like, to push her pernicious ideas into the head of every child, regardless of parents' wishes or feelings. All this to make trans people feel a little better about themselves, and to hell with the lives of our children and the sweet age of innocence. Be on guard. Make your voice heard.

Datun · 30/09/2017 17:10

I am so infuriated and outraged by the whole issue, I tend to dip deeper, rather than in and out.

And I have to say, I am heartened by how many more people (not just here), are waking up to the implications.

There's been a huge turnaround in the last couple of months, which intensified after the violence at speakers corner.

I honestly believe the tide is turning. Whether it is too late, I don't know. I sincerely hope not.

Meanwhile, I'm doing a little recce at Shady Pines. Block booking dormitories, making lists.

Juniper berries (tick)
Cutted up lemons (tick)
Scrabble (tick)
Cards (tick)
Poker chips (tick)
Chips (tick)
Yeast strains (tick)
Cloak - ironed (tick)
Dagger - polished (tick)
MN handshake - perfected (tick)

Have I missed anything?

BMacklin · 30/09/2017 16:00

yet read your link. "Non-standard gender practices" hmmm. I don't think anyone (feminists least of all) have a problem with people who demonstrate non-standard gender practices. There's so much wrong with that sentence.

TalkingintheDark · 30/09/2017 15:28

So perfect that Shady Pines turns out to be in Florida. Booking my ticket as we speak.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 30/09/2017 15:05

This, by the way, was one of the first explanations of 'cis' I came across many moons ago when someone told me I had 'cis privilege'. I didn't know what it was, looked it up, thought it was rubbish and so googled 'cis is an insult'.

knowyourmeme.com/memes/die-cis-scum

I think the next think I googled was 'trans violence against women' and I came up with all these hits about how feminists were violent to MtTs ...

I wish I'd known about Shady Pines then. I'd have cut out the angst and signed up on the spot.

BMacklin · 30/09/2017 14:56

Yes Bagel same here. I drift in and out of these boards trying to make sense of it. Ill then toddle off to write the occasional email to someone i think my be influential, wrote a letter tletter to my MP, put links on FB (ones I dare to post), and try to discuss things with my family -mostly to an apparently uninterested audience. My mum and DH get it and one friend. The others in my life don't get it (or is that WON'T - As in they have fallen for the trans narrative). So I get annoyed and upset and leave it for a while (drink gin at Shady Pines) but then something pops up on tv or a newspaper article to make me think about it again.

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