I am Janice Turner's No 1 fan - another excellent article

I agree it seems this will continue WorkingItOut which is another reason people like Janice Turner covering it is so vital. It's the perpetuating the idea girls can really "feel like boys" which bothers me in the case of St Paul's, as I said I think girls' schools should be fighting gender stereotyping (as I feel mine does) not pandering to this kind of thing, though of course appreciate your view as a parent of someone there who knows more than me!

Another great article. Turner is pretty brave. I hate to imagine the kind of abuse she must be getting.

Well done Chrome. That radio play has raised my blood pressure every morning this week. I was meaning to write too.

Nolove- I totally agree with you about pronoun use - as I said I am gender critical - but the point is that this is happening in your school, it is happening everywhere. Schools have no power to stop it and the situation will only get worse. It was with that I mind that I was pleased SPGS put such strong boundaries in place and such limits. I would expect the school to face a legal challenge on them at some point precisely because they have been so restrictive and so clear they will only teach girls, not transgirls or transboys.

It really came down to an acceptance of name changing and pronoun use

Name changing I have no issue with as really there's no reason names should be specific to sex but I think the pronoun use is ridiculous. Younger girls at the school will be aware of this and are being given the idea that girls who have certain interests, personalities etc are really boys. From what I've heard some girls are claiming to be "non-binary" and some to be boys (I know someone who attends the school). I'd be pretty wound up if this started happening at my school (though wouldn't be surprised if it did at some point).

Excellent article yet again by Janice. Am so impressed by her bravery.

On the topic of St Paul's I think it is worth reading what the school actually said. As a gender critical parent at the school I was very worried when this was announced in the media especially as there had been no communication to the wider parent body. But I think the school has been very sensible and cautious and done the minimum it is required to do and very much with the girls' mental health in mind. www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/london-school-girl-pupils-gender-neutral-identify-male-st-pauls-public-school-a7589701.html%3famp

The school was careful to say it could only teach girls. It was careful to insist on parental consultation. It was careful to allow nothing permanent - exam certificates for example are in the natal name. It really came down to an acceptance of name changing and pronoun use - pupils there already wear what they like and there is no uniform. It is a relatively small number of girls I understand - less than 10 from two years of sixth formers which must be around 250 girls. My sense was they are mostly rejecting notions of binary gender rather than wanting to transition to male. I also have a sense it is generally girls who had been out as lesbian beforehand, so it does make me sad for young lesbians that they are facing this issue at present and being erased by what I see as a deeply homophobic ideology. So in fact I was surprised to find I actually supported the SPGS gentle approach on this one.

It's one thing to deal with these issues if they arise and offer support - I can very much empathise with wanting to avoid the unwanted attention, street harassment and risk of male violence girls are at - but to actually legitimise and perpetuate the notion some girls are really boys is quite irresponsible and damaging I think.

Well quite. But no-one is chucking them out of the schools. It's almost as if they know they're not really boys...

I haven't been aware of this happening at my school although the Feminist Society as I've posted before is fully supportive of TRAs it seems (or others who disagree are the same as a friend and I and don't want to challenge this line lest we be accused of transphobia). I also know of another girls' school near where I live which a couple of friends attend where it's not taken hold as it has at St Paul's.

Indeed QueenLaBeefah. Their policy is that from the age of 16, girls are able to identify as boys, be called "he", which all pupils and teachers then have to abide by. It's baffling in my opinion and I think potentially quite damaging to younger years.

Surely if girls identify as boys then they shouldn't be in a girls school? Or am I missing something here?

It's interesting to me as well the way the no. of trans teenagers seems to correlate with class/culture. I know of teachers in other private girls' schools dealing with similar issues to St Paul's. I teach in a state girls' school where most students are first or second generation immigrants from Africa and it does not seem to be on their radar.

I do think the school mentioned in the article - St Paul's Girls' School - is being quite irresponsible in endorsing girls "identifying as boys" and insisting all pupils and teachers refer to them with male pronouns and so on. A girls' school should be challenging gender stereotypes and freeing pupils from them, not perpetuating them as I feel they are with their approach.

It's not just about sexual attention, though, or even just adulthood. Taking on a woman's body also often means taking on the second-class social, cultural, political positions an adult woman's body takes on. Or perhaps that should be, 'threatens to involve'.

Yes definitely. It's not wanting to grow up and have a woman's body with all the unwanted attention that goes with it.

Very much so, especially as this unwanted attention starts for many girls at such a young age, early teens or even earlier. I can understand wanting to escape all that and seeking any way which would seem a mechanism to do so.

Oh yes please can she do a webchat.

CD are you on twitter? Journos usually tweet their pieces so you could just check on there and buy a paper that day.

This comment was good...

On the positive side I was at a family event this week with two girls I know a little. They are fab girls - fun and teenage. They were also v insightful on this. Thoughtful about the issues for people who are not at ease with themselves but also aware trans stuff is not necessarily the answer, dangerous for women, homophobic. One trans friend of theirs had a small gang of friends who were also now identifying as trans or non binary or this that and the other. They remarked that one clearly had diagnosed mental health issues and was clutching at the trans label for a solution. I was impressed that they'd identified all this for themselves already. But they also said they wouldn't say too much about it at school / uni because of the bigot label.

Anyway I was reassured that many young people get this and see it for what it is.

partystress I came on to ask a similar question. Who is funding this? Who is benefiting from the turmoil?

Yes definitely. It's not wanting to grow up and have a woman's body with all the unwanted attention that goes with it. Going from girl to woman is scary.

Janice Turner writes on a Saturday. I heartily recommend the Times on a Saturday for lots of great writing but especially JT. Could she do a webchat perhaps ?

Is that a derail, I sense?

The point is not the school, the point is how trans-identity - particularly amongst young women specifically and young people generally - functions : the personal identity dilemmas is permits to be articulated and (partially/temporarily) resolved; the identity positions it allows to be performed; the competing demands of society, culture, politics it allows to be (temporarily/partially) balanced.

There is a wealth of research and investigation of how anorexia functioned with regard to gender; there is a relative silence on the issue of trans identity. Putting the two into close proximity permits a reflection on the similarities and differences between the two.

For what it's worth, I think there are some strong similarities between how anorexic identity functioned/was deployed by young women of my generation and how trans identity functions in contemporary youth (particularly female youth) culture.

Fair enough, CDA.

I still can't believe the Uni would actually come out and use the words "politically incorrect" - are we a satellite of North Korea now? It really is thought crime territory.

Love that letter, crome.

An excellent article! Well done Janice! And what is happening at universities is truly terrifying.

How can a school turn out so many damaged girls and no one bats an eyelid?