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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I am Janice Turner's No 1 fan - another excellent article

538 replies

Stopmakingsense · 23/09/2017 07:19

This one picks up in particular the huge rise in women identifying as men, and the increasing inability of anyone being able to question it:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/even-asking-questions-is-now-transphobic-ztk3rlrfk?shareToken=1f64a5116171eb54a9a866590e6432ec

OP posts:
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Stopmakingsense · 24/09/2017 10:48

Regarding trans identifying girls in St Paul's and elsewhere. A much more explanation than being born in the wrong body is that these high achieving girls could be on the autistic spectrum, and this is worthy of serious research. Often undiagnosed the girls mask by copying but as they got older this gets more difficult, they suffer from chronic anxiety and struggle fitting in with their peers. Gender difficulties are common - eating disorders are common too (you can see how both disorders are about control to manage anxiety) So if these schools had had autism awareness training as well as diversity training from GIRES etc we would perhaps be in a different place.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 24/09/2017 10:46

If you want to know about things like brain differences or in utero development, just Google them:

We have. Many of the little women here have educated themselves quite a lot in such matters to be armed with the facts. Some, gasp, are even scientists and doctors!

Ereshkigal · 24/09/2017 10:44

I've encountered StrangeAdventure before.

Talks complete bollocks

I've never encountered them before but I concur.

Ereshkigal · 24/09/2017 10:42

Strange, I saw your posts at 2am last night when I got in. Was too tired to respond then (though was tempted) and now you're flouncing. Quelle surprise.

Like most transactivists you have everything pretty much backwards. You say that "you don't think" anyone has prevented James Caspian's detransitioner research. James Caspian is quoted as saying in his crowd fund post:

In November 2016 Bath Spa University refused my re-application, fundamentally on the basis that it might attract unpleasant comments on social media, which they said might be detrimental to the reputation of the university. In January 2017 there was a final ruling which supported this decision"

www.crowdjustice.com/case/uphold-freedom-of-speech-in-our-universities/

So someone is lying or misinformed. I wonder who?

borntobequiet · 24/09/2017 10:32

Even if there were "male brains" and "female brains" surely that would be because there are male bodies and female bodies? The brain is a physical organ, part of the body...
Or am I missing something?

Datun · 24/09/2017 10:15

This is how these conversations always go. A flurry of links that show nothing. Or an exchange of links that contradict one another.

Because there is no consensus. Most scientists say that male and female brains are mosaic of traits and there is no ethical way of determining how much of a part is played brain plasticity. Or indeed scialisation.

And I still don't understand what difference it makes. On the most basic level, I can be impregnated by a penis. Not a gender identity.

Datun · 24/09/2017 10:09

StrangeAdventure

Have you actually read any of those links?

Half of them are unavailable. And even a brief skim does not support what you are saying.

There are far fewer studies of transsexuality in identical twins because the condition is far rarer. However of four studied monozygotic (identical) male twin pairs, of which one was transsexual, the other twin was transsexual in only one case, so researchers concluded that genetic factors were most unlikely to be important

Typically, a scientific study is quoted which suggests a correlation or link between transsexuality and hormones or brain structure etc. (The actual strength of the link is almost never mentioned.) This link is taken to show that transsexuality has “a biological basis”, or “is biological”, or “is genetic”, or “is due to hormones”. The implication then taken from this equivocal use of language is that the condition is biologically determined, whereas in all cases the evidence shows nothing of the kind

theendisnotnigh · 24/09/2017 10:08

Datun,
*Strange is an 'expert' courtesy of google (according to them). Grin

theendisnotnigh · 24/09/2017 10:06

Strange ,
I realise that I am interrupting your flounce but what do you mean by 'reject the terminology that we need to have a discussion' ?

busyboysmum · 24/09/2017 10:02

Trans group ATH ‘condones punching feminists’

Campaigners who have the ear of MPs defend an activist who attacked a 60-year-old

James Gillespie
September 24 2017, 12:01am, The Sunday Times

Action for Trans Health believes anyone who self-identifies as a woman should be allowed to use women-only spaces
Action for Trans Health believes anyone who self-identifies as a woman should be allowed to use women-only spaces
JOEL GOODMAN
A transgender campaign group that gave evidence to an influential parliamentary committee has publicly supported violence against women.

Members of Action for Trans Health (ATH) have issued a series of incendiary statements on social media since its supporters were involved in an attack on a 60-year-old woman in London’s Hyde Park on September 13.

The victim, Maria MacLachlan, suffered bruising after being punched by an activist widely identified on social media as Tara Flik Wood, 28, a courier who lives in London. MacLachlan was with a group of feminists who were planning to hold a meeting about gender identity.

Unlike MacLachlan and her group, ATH believes that anyone who self-identifies as a woman — without having undergone transition surgery — should be allowed to use women-only spaces such as changing rooms. The ATH extremists refer to MacLachlan and women who hold similar views as “trans-exclusionary radical feminists”, or Terfs.

Jess Bradley was a member of ATH’s executive committee when she gave evidence on gender equality to the women and equalities select committee in 2015.

The committee’s report recommended updating legislation to allow “self-declaration” of gender identity and to “de-medicalise” it — which is now part of a consultation launched by the government on the Gender Recognition Bill.

The Hyde Park violence has triggered the setting up of a new feminist group, Woman’s Place UK, whose co-founder Kiri Tunks said she was “horrified” by the incident.

“We need to be able to discuss this in a respectful way. Women need reserved places and separate spaces. Women’s voices must be heard.”

The trans extremists, however, appear unlikely to listen. After the attack ATH’s Edinburgh branch sent out a series of tweets defending the use of violence: “punching terfs is the same as punching Nazis. Fascism must be smashed with the greatest violence to ensure our collective liberation from it”, and “violence against terfs is always self defense”.

Bradley tweeted, “Terfs are using Nazi tactics. Don’t let it work”, and directed readers to a blog that supported the violence. The ATH account retweeted her message.

A group of 22 women including the gay activist Linda Bellos, the author Bea Campbell and the Labour peer Baroness Prosser have condemned the incident in Hyde Park.

“Violence against women is always wrong. Attempts to minimise or justify this violence . . . are deeply worrying,” they wrote.

Bradley, who is the trans officer for the National Union of Students (NUS), told The Sunday Times she no longer works for the group.

“Anything I say is not the official line of ATH. I retweeted a blog from an angry woman who had written about it. I was not there [when the attack happened]. I do not want to say anything because of the amount of harassment that has come my way because my name is on the ATH website,” she said.

The NUS declined to comment.

ATH said it was “a feminist organisation that works with many other feminist organisations . . . Our values mean opposing both misogynistic and transphobic violence.”

The London branch said it had organised the “action” and regretted “that individuals from both sides were hurt during the altercation”.

Wood did not respond to a request for comment.

Datun · 24/09/2017 10:02

I've encountered StrangeAdventure before.

Talks complete bollocks.

StrangeAdventure · 24/09/2017 09:58

If you want to know about things like brain differences or in utero development, just Google them: you will find plenty of information, ranging from original scientific papers down to general interest magazines and blogs.
scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=transsexual+brain+research&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrwcK-t73WAhXJmLQKHZsjCYMQgQMIJjAA

But as you choose to ignore facts that don't suit your prejudices in favour of fantasies that do, and even reject the terminology that we need to have a discussion, I see no point continuing it.
I have better things to do with a sunny Sunday.

Have a nice day.

ErrolTheDragon · 24/09/2017 09:58

Ah, I'm using ipad or ipod .

ErrolTheDragon · 24/09/2017 09:55

Did you know that the average pre-menopausal woman has more testosterone in her bloodstream than oestrogen?

No, I didn't...er, so what? How much she has compared to a man might possibly be relevant to the discussion. But AFAIK I'm not aware that middle aged women are deciding their peri-meno symptoms make them feel like a man ... very much the opposite.

Datun · 24/09/2017 09:48

Me neither.

Igneococcus · 24/09/2017 09:47

I'm on a desktop computer at the moment errol and there is no copy option (that i can see) and I just checked on my tablet (android) and there isn't a copy option either.

ErrolTheDragon · 24/09/2017 09:42

Igneo, datun After I've hit the times share link/icon I see various options inc FB etc but one is just Copy - it just puts the link into the clipboard so it can then be pasted. I was assuming the apps worked the same for everyone.

Datun · 24/09/2017 09:38

Igneococcus

Okay thanks. I'll try that next time.

retreatwhispering · 24/09/2017 09:35

I have experience of a large city girls' school elsewhere in Europe. There are plenty of masculine girls. But nobody cares because uniform isn't a requirement. As far as I know there isn't a single trans pupil at the school. Certainly trans isn't a 'thing'. Not on anybody's radar, not something discussed amongst the teens. Just like a PP said about their pupils of immigrant background. We are certainly talking about a cultural phenomena here.

Accepting that somebody is a boy and then allowing them to stay at a girls' school implies that you don't believe them, surely?

SeaRabbit · 24/09/2017 09:27

I saw mention in The Times of a "new feminist group" Woman's Place UK. Does anyone know anything about it?

Terfing · 24/09/2017 09:14

If trans women have female brains, then why do they need to take female hormones?

borntobequiet · 24/09/2017 09:08

Haven't read the full thread yet but though I cannot condone in any way the madness that is trans activism or any of the frankly deluded thinking that goes with it, I do have sympathy with girls and young women who see transitioning as a way out of the nightmare that puberty and adolescence can be for some.
I would have jumped at the chance to escape horrendous periods and PMS/PMDD that just got worse and worse leaving me depressed and suicidal by transitioning. I went from a gifted athlete and high achieving academic to someone who rarely left her room and cried most of the time. Happily I started sleeping with my boyfriend, necessitating going on the Pill in its early days which made me feel much better...of course I thought it was the boyfriend (well, it was a bit).
My point is that if young women are showing such signs of distress, there are better interpretations of the cause than gender dysphoria, which is indeed a cultural phenomenon and a fad.

NoLoveofMine · 24/09/2017 09:06

That's true Datun and I'm sure the Head, as with at St Paul's Girls' School, means well. It's such a shame though that girls' schools are perpetuating these ideas of gender when my experience has been of mine being quite freeing from that kind of thing. As they start endorsing views such as those (suggesting having short hair or wearing trousers makes girls "trans") then it's so potentially damaging and such a shame.

BMacklin · 24/09/2017 09:06

Excellent. Thanks for this. Will catch up properly later.

Datun · 24/09/2017 09:04

Ktown

I completely agree. I couldn't care less about what someone's brain consisted of. Because that's not the definition of sex.

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