I am Janice Turner's No 1 fan - another excellent article

FtF is me when I shower and change out of the messy clothes I have been using to paint the walls or do the garden into a dress, heels and make up to go to work.

If I know the person and it is FtF...

I've clearly read too many of these threads, as I read that as 'female-to-female' and couldn't work out what multiple gender transformation you were talking about.

Just posted this on another thread:

The researcher in Janice's article on Saturday was interviewed on Radio 4's Today programme after the sport & headlines @ c8.35am. It was a pretty good interview. They had a contribution from a trans advocate at the start to say why they thought this kind of research was problematic and could be misused. Then the researcher was interviewed at length and allowed to make his arguments, which he did with eminent reasonableness and clarity.

If I know the person and it is FtF or if it is in any official document I use the correct pro-noun although in many cases it chokes me to do so. In one case, I like the person a lot, but they benefitted greatly from male privilege when they were a man and this now seems forgotten. In another, they don't even try and I am of the view that their 'trans' nature is actually about misogyny. They don't get off sexually by being seen as a woman, they 'get off' on their male power by humiliating women and making them acquiesce to their demands whilst simultaneously playing the victim. To me this feels like violence. If it is anonymous and I have no respect for the person then the gloves are off and it is 'he' or 'they' depending on context.

Exactly. The likes of Danielle Muscato might well be trolling the world in plain sight, but if they self id as a woman there's no difference between them and any other self declared trans "woman".

ReanimatedSGB

Yes, there is a lot of talk about these people just being men's rights activists and trolls.

However some of those claims are coming from the transactivist side. In order to disassociate themselves from the violence, whilst benefiting from the fear it engenders and the shutting down of discussion.

On the other hand. These people are gleefully warning women on social media that they are coming to a bathroom near them soon.

So whether they are genuine or not, is a bit moot. They will be the ones exploiting the law.

I tend to say 'they' which is neither buying into the fiction that one can change sex (and he/she denotes sex, not gender) nor erasing that person's reality (that they do not identify as their born sex, whatever that really means).

I don't believe that we are simply talking about social media trolls though Reanimated. We are talking about people who have the ear of the government to the extent that women's spaces are no longer solely for women, and many, many people are afraid to speak out publicly for fear of being branded a bigot and, in some jobs, disciplined. Those are very powerful social media trolls.

Well each to their own SGB. I personally think pandering to the pronouns and calling males "women" is what's got us into this mess in the first place. I probably wouldn't be deliberately rude and inflammatory in person but I'm never going to stop feeling that it's quite an outrageous imposition on me, frankly.

The James ....? whose dissertation was refused by Bath Spa was on the Today programme. Missed the person before him, arguing that this research should be refused, but James... seemed very articulate and, actually, a trans ally. Worth listening to on catch up.

And here's that female socialization again. While they discuss if it is OK to punch feminists, we discuss whether we're too unkind if we call them "he" and "him".

I'm also not comfortable with the idea that a proper feminist response to trans issues and trans people means going out of your way to use the pronouns that they have asked you not to use. I can't see any point in being deliberately insulting to someone who hasn't actually done you any harm. (As PP have said, there's a difference between not believing in the same gods as someone else and going out of your way to tell them their imaginary friend is imaginary and their religious rituals stupid, when the person is not actually inflicting their beliefs on you but just going about their daily business).

The whole business is such a mess, though. It's really, really difficult to get a handle on what's actually happening and what is malicious rumour, fake news, paranoia or misunderstanding. (The latest thing I heard - which I think may well have some truth in it - is that a lot of the worst and most abusive 'transactivists' on social media are, basically, trolls with no interest in transpeople's rights or wellbeing, but a lot of enthusiasm for feminist-bashing).

No I definitely don't think all of it is calculated. Some of it is heartfelt I'm sure. But there's a core of disruptive, aggressive TRAS who seem to be MRAs and/or have AGP who I will call out every time.

I'm am dubious about going along with anyone with male genitalia who says they are a woman even if they are not any of the above though.

I'm sure Rachel Dolezal was acting in good faith and felt that she was black quite honestly because she associated with black culture so strongly. I've read a bit about her and it seems to come from a good place. But the world told her to take a hike with that stuff - rightly. I'm not sure I see any difference with this situation. If she was offensive to black people why would this not be offensive to women? Why should we have to accommodate this ? Because we are kind and nurturing ? I have nothing but sympathy for people who honestly find themselves in this situation but that doesn't mean I need to collude with the idea that women can have penises.

With all that 'kill all terfs' business I would say many are threatening to kill us, though some aren't!

It's so depressing. Insecure young girls being encouraged to have mastectomies and render themselves infertile. It is a scandal of epic proportions. And if the kids being affected are from wealthy families, the legal fallout will also be epic

But at the lifetime cost of these poor young people.

She's right about girls' schools, too. Last school year, before she left, my 18-year-old daughter remarked that a lot of rather otherwise vulnerable girls were very suddenly saying they were trans, more than seemed statistically likely. It was a very academic school.

Females hormones fluctuate across the month as well as across a lifetime.
How do you mimic that?
Not with a daily dose of HRT or the pill, that's for sure.
Check out any physiology textbook.

Yes. Backing and Datun. That is how I feel. It is so absolutely ingrained in women of my age to be polite, and I'd thought of the pronouns in that sense (although hanging out in gay clubs a lot in my teens/twenties, the use of "she" towards any vaguely camp gay man really bothered me for reasons I couldn't articulate then) but now I feel it is actually dangerous to use the wrong sex pronoun in general conversation. It is like when we talk to our todders who are about to tantrum, and say "yes, yes darling you are a bear, of course you are, I forgot". We are used to placating and pacifying as women. Diffusing temper tantrums in tinies, sidestepping the anger of men. It is our default setting. But here this tendency to be polite and to sidestep is contributing to the erasure of women.

I think people are entitled to believe what they want, God, changing sex, whatever. The problems start when the rest of us are compelled, bullied and legislated to say that these beliefs are fact

I can bite my tongue over religious beliefs but this is calculated to steal my space, deny my experience and appropriate my physicality. So no.

I completely agree. I've never been in an abusive relationship, but I have learnt, from here, that one of the characteristics is do what I say otherwise you are harming me.

See I can't really respect anyone's sincerely held belief that they are a woman when they want to retain male genitalia. It's just BS and they are assuming we are too polite to say they are not.

I can bite my tongue over religious beliefs but this is calculated to steal my space, deny my experience and appropriate my physicality. So no.

With "assigned female" or "assigned male" I get a picture in my head of the midwife with a clipboard saying "hmm, not enough males today, best quickly sew a penis on this one", or "best pop a uterus in this one, keep the quota up".

I agree with all of that. And this isn't the first time that pronouns have had me wavering.

It is so massively entrenched at the moment that you don't misgender, that it can undermine your credibility amongst certain people, even allies.

But like you say, I believe it changes your perception. You keep saying she instead of he and unless you deliberately translate that in your head, it becomes almost as though they are a she.

I stopped doing it online, as much as I can. But, for instance, when someone likes curry speaks on here, I can't bring myself to call him, he. It feels like I'm making a point that is coming across as rude or cruel.

Maybe a disclaimer would work. "I don't agree with forcing people into preferred pronouns, but on this occasion I will, out of courtesy".