I am Janice Turner's No 1 fan - another excellent article

How can this be? I thought there were very strict rules about medical records retention and not amending them after the fact. I would have thought this is even more important if the patient subsequently needs to rely on those records for legal action.

Helen Webberly is thought of in very negative terms by the GPs I know who would not dream of giving teenage kids hormones.
However the General Medical Council puts pressure on GPs to prescribe for people waiting to be seen at specialist clinics. This is mostly resisted as it's recognised as being potentially very dangerous long term (for adults as well as kids)
Health boards also put pressure on GPs to remove all pre transition stuff from patients notes, and this has happened in some places I know. This means you can't offer cervical screening for biological females, or prostate blood tests for biological males without being accused of being transphobic. That's just two examples to demonstrate that it's very dangerous but there are countless other reasons why their medical histories should not be effectively deleted and re-written

You would think that a university, as a centre of knowledge, would want to increase knowledge, not kowtow to regressive thinking. But they were probably scared of being made a target.

It's good that the mainstream media is starting to write about this issue. Most people haven't got a clue about the Gender Identity bill, let alone the issues around it, as the discussion has mainly been on the internet. And I think that most people would be disgusted that a 60 year old woman has been punched in the face, and that the attackers think she was asking for it.

I'm amazed if the university actually used the phrase "politically incorrect": it's openly admitting that it's turning the research proposal down for reasons of public image rather than for ethical reasons. Indeed, you might argue that it's turning it down for deeply unethical reasons.

I think there are times when academic freedom has to be balanced with responsibility. Not meaning the James Caspian case, although I have obviously not seen the proposal. But someone somewhere makes decisions that research involving paedphilia is sound, for example. Or around responses to violence or stress. Academic freedom is not boundless, that is why we have ethics committees.

Not commenting directly on your cases cromey as I don't know them, just generally as a point of principle. I do think there are some subjects where academics, and the institutions supporting them, should tread carefully.

Again, I am not sure that 'politically incorrect' is nuanced enough to cover these issues. It depends on the rest of the email.

I have to confess that I am unsure about the James Caspian story since we are only getting one side of the story and it looks perfect. I'm not suggesting it didn't happen, but I'd like to hear both sides and see evidence of Bath Spa University saying that “engaging in a potentially politically incorrect piece of research carries a risk to the University”.

I sit on the same research ethics committee in my university. I have heard similar sentiments expressed, about research being reputationally risky--on a completely different topic. I strongly opposed this line of thinking, saying that it was completely outside the committee's jurisdiction and that we would be violating academic freedom. However, I can very easily believe Caspian's scenario. Unfortunately many academics are cowards, and when funds are tight it's easiest to try to eliminate risk.

Incidentally, sitting on this ethics committee has showed me how difficult it is to do even the most innocuous research on anyone under 18, who are classified as 'children'. By contrast, if you're a GP (like Dr Webberley) apparently you can pump tweens full of potent chemotherapy drugs after a Skype consultation!

But I think there is an element of that (your deleted text Olenna - old-fashioned patriarchy has a hierarchy based on sexual difference. Page 3 and the sidebar are based on sexual objectification. They are not a gender construct, breasts and a female body form, they are a biological fact.

The fact that the newspaper indulges in sexual objectification of women is indicative of gender-based hierarchies which allows men/society to do this. So, I think it is possible to both agree with the Sun that male/female difference is based on biological sex and its embodiment, but disagree that female sexual difference should be exploited or objectified. Both positions rely on a fundamental belief that men and women are biologically different.

It's a funny old world when a paper that has a sidebar including a photo of Lady Gaga sunbathing topless, slightly salacious pictures of a model who was allegedly kidnapped as a publicity stunt and Adolf Hitler's underpants is a gender critical ally

Maybe they are concerned about being lobbied to include a TW Page 3 girl

Maybe at some point they'll knock this 'assigned' nonsense on the head with routine chromosome screening. From what I've read, in the 'assignment' and treatment of the small numbers of intersex babies, the chromosomal sex is of prime importance in most cases nowadays, followed by internal not merely external genitalia.

Because I'd had an amnio, there was absolutely no guess involved in knowing my DD's sex. I wonder if there's any stats from the days when amnios were fairly commonplace on the incidence of apparent sex at birth not matching the known genetics?

"'This is a story about you') and goes on to define sex (a guess based on body parts observed at birth)"

I'm actually OK with this, as it is scientifically true for people with intersex conditions. It also uses "observed" rather than assigned.

I've just found this thread and wanted to add to karlos's point in the first few posts that in my professional and personal experience there can be an overlap with ASD and gender questioning.

I can see that to write a piece on it would be very difficult, but I believe it is an area worthy of investigation.

bad

Here is a thread about a book explaining gender identity to children.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3042902-Gender-Identity-Explained

From a ringing endorsement in the review section.

"'This is a story about you') and goes on to define sex (a guess based on body parts observed at birth)"

Is that why the midwife takes the baby away for a few minutes? I always thought it was to weigh, measure and do APGAR scores etc, but it seems the clear tank where they do the checks is a "sorting bassinet" (a la the Hogwarts sorting hat).

I also wondered if they had a sorting hat. But this explains it all. That is what they are up to [lightbulb]

I think I read that it was in an email?
Certainly, he would need to have been very certain he could prove it, to go public with this, and the newspapers that carried the story would want to have seen proof.

I am talking about James Caspian's rejected study, sorry for lack of clarity.

Have the university refuted the claim, though? I agree that there must be evidence in the form of a letter, as ethics committees provide formal responses. It may have been verbal advice, though, prior to formal application.

I can understand measured advice being given if the level of ethical approval needed is more complicated and high level than the level of study warrants (e.g. an undergraduate wanting to interview problem drug users for their dissertation through the NHS). But there would have to be valid time and resource issues to consider, as well as the level of experience of the student, and how they wanted to recruit. There are also complexities around the level of risk and sensitivity in the subject as well. But 'politically incorrect' does not capture these nuances, it seems a cop out.

So yes, it would be good to know more about the context and content of this advice.

With "assigned female" or "assigned male" I get a picture in my head of the midwife with a clipboard saying "hmm, not enough males today, best quickly sew a penis on this one", or "best pop a uterus in this one, keep the quota up".

Is that why the midwife takes the baby away for a few minutes? I always thought it was to weigh, measure and do APGAR scores etc, but it seems the clear tank where they do the checks is a "sorting bassinet" (a la the Hogwarts sorting hat).

Thanks to all for keeping these discussions going and for the links. Just catching up now and v happy to see The Sun cover the issue from our perspective.

Indeed Poppy. That piece in the Sun was probably the most accurate I have read so far. Hope they cover the Trans Health Manifesto. That should peaktrans their readers pretty sharpish

I have to confess that I am unsure about the James Caspian story since we are only getting one side of the story and it looks perfect. I'm not suggesting it didn't happen, but I'd like to hear both sides and see evidence of Bath Spa University saying that “engaging in a potentially politically incorrect piece of research carries a risk to the University”.

Good grief. First I'm agreeing with The Times, now The Sun!

Interesting. Some quite good concise explanations there (which is one of the things tabloid writing can do well, though it doesn't always). They've gone with the concern about male-bodied people in hospitals and prisons as the key one. I think powerful life-changing drugs being given to children, and women's sport being taken over by male-bodied competitors, would be the others I would lead with.

Bet Julia Long never envisioned the day she'd be sympathetically quoted by the Sun. Strange bedfellows all this is making!

They have said the previously unsayable. Men keeping their penises want in your bathroom, prison, locker room. And if you don't like it you'll get a slap.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/4537777/transgender-law-proposals-assault-hyde-park-opinion/

Have you seen this in The Sun. Excellent well researched clear article.