Gender reassignment surgery... Would you then be happy with them in female spaces?

TurquoiseChevrotain
Who decides who looks male and female? If someone looks female, but sounds male, what happens then? What if they pass from a distance, but not close up or in a group of women?

I get the feeling though that some transpeople talk about 'just wanting a pee in safety' but that actually it's more about being validated in their delusion of being female and wanting everyone else to agree they are - and would therefore resist the neutral or safe male loo option.

I would say that's true. That's why when someone suggests that we should have more unisex toilets as a way of resolving this they are often shot down.

There is nothing unsafe about using an enclosed unisex toilet but transactivists still don't want them because (just like everything else it seems) it's 'transphobic' or something.

Gender dysphoria is of course real. Nobody has said it isn't.

However just because you think you are something or want to be something does not mean that you are that thing.

Transwomen are male. Transmen are female. I would say that everybody knows this but most people are just too polite or scared of backlash to say it.

My thoughts are that if you need a name for the space, ie to register or whatnot, then it must be female only. Like refuges, sport, prisons, scholarships. I'd be less specific about loos and changing rooms, although i certainly wouldn't want to be forced to endure a "female penis" in open view. So i dunno...

Today 11:58 TurquoiseChevrotain

what if they didn't look male? There are lots of trams people who had puberty blockers and had surgery later on in life.

Personally, this isn't a case of minding or not minding. It's a case of not knowing.

I'm sure transwomen have been sharing bathrooms with us for decades. With no problem.

But that is a courtesy. Not a right.

@Datun the examples are in response to your querying the relevance of dorms. Dorms are not just dormitories in schools but sleeping accommodation in halls of residence hostels etc.

Oh, okay sorry. I was thinking of boarding school. I didn't know they were called dormitories elsewhere.

Are there lots of universities with more than one person per bedroom? I thought most units these days were single occupancy.

Hostels. Yes, I know about those. Can usually choose between mixed sex or single sex.

I wouldn't mind a bit.

No I wouldn't be comfortable with post-op transwomen in women's spaces. The lack of a penis doesn't make them any less likely to be violent. And how would you determine? Its quite unethical to have to ask people about their genitals to allow them into a certain space. They will still look male, they will still be intimidating to a vulnerable woman. The lack of penis doesn't make them a woman, it doesn't make them any less male.
Theres also the issue that it might push people towards surgery, and I don't think that we really should encourage gender reassignment surgery on people who are potentially vulnerable, i believe that a lot of autistic people can believe they are transgender for example and it could push people towards surgery. To me its quite unethical to do that. Surgery should be a very last resort. It also affirms the issue that a surgically created hole is in fact a vagina, when it isn't.
I always think its interesting that in these cases its women who have to let transwomen in, no one has actually targeted the men who are beating up transwomen, I dont actually think I've seen one article asking men to stop beating up transwomen. It might help the case of transwomen if they targeted the men who make women feel unsafe in public toilets, but instead we just have to accept it.

@Datun the examples are in response to your querying the relevance of dorms. Dorms are not just dormitories in schools but sleeping accommodation in halls of residence hostels etc.

Today 11:19 TurquoiseChevrotain

@Datun shelters? Hostels? There are lots of places.

Sorry, can you clarify that? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

A woman isn't just a man without a penis.

I absolutely believe that people should be able to live their lives however they wish to present without discrimination. This is why we need to fight for natal males to be safe while using male toilets and presenting as a woman; not to force everyone to hide out in the female toilets.

Of course some people would be absolutely fine to share toilets etc with be they male, female, intersex, trans, whatever but there are biological reasons that they have been segregated; periods mainly I suppose.

Sports, health, scholarships are a whole different matter and should absolutely be about birth sex rather than gender.

No I wouldn't accept them as a female.

Chopping bits off, taking hormones and plastic surgery does not make you a woman.

It is biologically impossible to change gender/sex.

However, I'm perfectly happy to accept them living as their interpretation of what a woman is.

If they were in a bad car crash and all that was left was bits of flesh, a DNA test would show them as male, and that is what they are, and always will be.

And even if there were many cases of transwomen being attacked in male loos, the answer is obviously to make loos safer, not fucking open up the female loos to these same males who are attacking transwomen!

I don't see it as being able to pee in safety...as there are vanishingly few instances where males wearing dresses have been reported as attacked in male facilities. And given our press and their seemingly unanimous support for all of this, and TAs who would be shouting from the rooftops...this doesn't seem to happen?

Whilst yes, if you felt you did not belong in there it would be uncomfortable for you of course...it doesn't seem to be a safety issue. And the exact same arguments used against women who protest (there are laws against assault, you are behind a door etc) can be used the other way around. So why is it female people are told that laws exist to protect you from any male person who would want to attack you, that the people in the loo simply want to pee not attack you and so on? WHY do not many people seem to 'get' this?!

This is a womens cycling event. The winner states that cycling is a very lucrative sport for her.
Men talk over women, its one reason why womens trauma therapy groups are women only.
The Korean 2018 Winter Olympics have no entry standards for women.Anyone can enter on a self declaration.
Womens events and spaces are for women. A soldier who lost his penis in conflict does not become a woman.

While I fully support anyone's wish to live how they want to, including 'as a woman' (whatever that might mean - I think in practice it usually means wearing clothes usually thought of as female, a female name etc), lack of penis does not equal Woman, and nor does 'how you feel inside your head'.

Therefore I don't support MTT in women's loos, changing rooms etc (although I realise the law is going to override the discomfort and wishes of women) but I'd really get behind a campaign to make men's loos etc safe for everyone male to use, even if presenting as female, or more provision of trans/neutral facilities.

I get the feeling though that some transpeople talk about 'just wanting a pee in safety' but that actually it's more about being validated in their delusion of being female and wanting everyone else to agree they are - and would therefore resist the neutral or safe male loo option.

Though with the loos and changing rooms issue..it has been noted upthread that in some cases people realistically could not know unless someone was flashing their bits around anyway. So my suggestion...is that we stick to the honour system that has been in place for many many years, where transwomen use female loos and such. We do not need laws to say this.

It would be nice if transwomen who know they look very much like men in dresses...were to simply use the male areas. Whether this upsets them personally or not. Rather than intimidate and scare females. Decent transwomen would do this anyway without it being said, I think.

Hm. This thread is helping to crystallise my thinking on this issue.

In theory, I would be happy for some post op TW to be present in some female spaces. But this would be impossible to police and unacceptable to many females. So in practice, I don't think that TW of any kind should have access to any female spaces.

I don't know what the solution for TW should be. Happy to support whatever consensus they come to, so long as it doesn't involve the use of or reduction of female spaces.

Personally I would have no issue in the likes of loos or changing rooms.

However, there would have to be something that worked across the board really. So I acknowledge that many many females would not be comfortable with males of any nature in their loos or changing rooms, so I would accept my view means not much, its the collective view of female people...and we cannot ignore the many female people who have been raped, abused, and so on.

I would always disagree with even post-op transwomen in female prisons, or crisis centres and such.

Biology is not a belief system - it is like saying do you believe in maths, or physics. It is a continuous exploration of the world, piling evidence on evidence and thoroughly testing that evidence from many angles.

To be fair, I spent 5 years of O level physics denying the existence of atoms, because you cannot actually physically see them, but that was not rational in retrospect. It is easily done

And the question yet to be answered is that if it's so inherently dangerous to use the mens loos, why be in favour of things that allow men into the ladies area.

Everyone has the right to be treated with kindness and compassion and to not be the subject of ridicule or violence.

But if we have to pick sides as datan has pointed out,

Why can't it be the side of the people who haven't agreed by the very action of having surgery, that they won't always be permitted to be somewhere.

It is certainly no secret this issue would arise.

Tocas I was referring to your 'transwomen are women' comment. No they are not. They are transwomen. Not women.