Gender reassignment surgery... Would you then be happy with them in female spaces?

It's outrageous to say that someone who has/had a penis is male? Fucking hell.

"If you've ever had a penis and testicles you're still male"

Not outrageous, just the simple scientific truth. Humans aren't like those amazing sex-changing fish, for example, however much some people might wish they were. And hurrah again for Cordelia Fine and 'Testosterone Rex' BTW........................

We're getting distracted again, and frankly most of us can predict what Crowdo is going to say next anyway.

And I don't think they will be happy until they have forced this law on everyone. And even then, I expect there will be more with aggressive enforcement - why would they stop when they are getting everything their own way?

I consider it my role to keep everyone around me happy and safe. As a human being, not as a vagina bearer.

Try telling that to the 60 year old woman who was punched by a man.

Who on earth are these violent willy wavers some of MN are imagining?

You think rapists are IMAGINARY?

WTF is wrong with you?

I consider it my role to keep everyone around me happy and safe. As a human being, not as a vagina bearer.

You can read the shitty comments for yourself. It's not all of you, but some people are wayyy out of order.

I do care about barely concealed bigotry.

So do (most) of us here. It's not bigotry to say that a transwoman is biologically male, or that a transwoman cannot be a lesbian. It is bigotry to say, on the other hand, that lesbians should be open to the idea of sleeping with a transwoman......

So this MN thread is going to be taken into account when making parliamentary decisions?

It was frankly insulting to suggest that MPs won't listen to opinions voiced on Mumsnet (or elsewhere). The fact is that opinions are changing (slightly), as the discussions on here continue, and events such as what happened at Speakers Corner get reported in the press. Stamping your feet and shouting 'bigot' all the time gets a bit tedious, frankly. We know you think we are all bigots, we've heard it before...........and we weren't convinced.

How about this guy:

Who on earth are these violent willy wavers some of MN are imagining?

Unfortunately they are all over the internet, and in Hyde park.

I don't think you are reading the responses on here, crowdo. Nobody is wishing trans people any harm or calling them freaks. That's something you have made up.

We are questioning mtt use of woman only facilities. Especially when it comes to self identification. We are saying that the need and wants of women to have sex segregated facilities overrides the needs and wants of transgender males to use those same facilities. For the simple reason that once adult human males are guaranteed rights to those facilities, they stop being sex segregated. Women will be denied the safety and dignity of sex segregated facilities.

Transgender males may have real fears and feel real discomfort in using male facilities, but its not the role of women to sort it out. Its not the role of women to keep men safe or validate their identity.

So this MN thread is going to be taken into account when making parliamentary decisions?

Of course not - but so far bills have got through preliminiary stages without taking any account of any women who would be affected by changing the law.

Normally, affected parties would be invited to comment on the proposed changes. This way, laws can be drawn up so that there are no unintended consequences and everyone is happy. But so far this has NOT happened - only the pressure groups who want the change to take place have been taken account of.

No one knows it is happening. Any questioning is shut down. Women are not a single group - there are only small groups that represent different women's interests and they cannot possibly know what the problems might be if no one ever talks about it, or worse still ends up in court for 'hate crime' for asking about what is going on. This is one of the few places where you can work through various views on the subject and work out what is important.

It might involve saying a few things that are later decided on as unimportant, and it may not look pretty, but it gives people a chance to work out what to ask for. They can then join groups or talk to their MP about it in the proper civil and democratic way.

If we are to have a good law, everyone needs to know. Otherwise it will not work.

I feel that if a trans woman is post op and has had all the associated treatment (therapy and hormones) then they should be treated as a woman.

I agree.
but only if they should have the full op.

All this business of 'keeping one foot' in male territory (which is effectively what you are doing when you decide to keep the penis and testes) means you're never going to be fully accepted as a woman.

I'm sorry, but a man in a frock that still has all his bits is not a woman in my eyes.

DistractedByAFatDog proving my point! Outrageous comment.

Crowdo

I'm sure you're trying to be compassionate and inclusive. No one hates trans-people and everyone would love them to be at peace.

But they clash with the rights of other people. Homosexuality, for instance. The ideology maintains that it should be unlearned. That lesbians should sleep with someone on the basis that they identify as a woman, despite the fact they have a penis.

And lesbians are transphobic for saying no.

It's really, really regressive.

"If you still have a penis and testicles you're still male"

If you've ever had a penis and testicles you're still male 🙄

I have had to use both a dv shelter and a psychiatric ward, so I know exactly what opening up spaces will mean.

Having an unbiased, kindly meant discussion on the subject is not the issue. You only have to read through a few of these threads to see the bubbling hatred coming through.

Frankly, I don't want to see anyone put in a position where they need psychiatric help be denied it, for whatever reason. I think it would be very cruel of me personally to say that other people have to suffer for my small mindedness. I know trans people and I wouldn't deny the one of them the shelter of coming into my space if they needed that to feel comfortable. I would actively welcome them. Who on earth are these violent willy wavers some of MN are imagining?

Just be nice ladies..... smile when men set records in women's sports that no real women will have a chance of ever achieving. Smile when a bearded man with a penis follows you into the ladies, or the changing rooms at your local gym. Just smile and be nice.

Male socialisation is dangerous, not male genitalia

Male genitalia can be pretty dangerous as well

Yes I would be happy for a person who has had full gender reassignment, to have access to female changing rooms and dorms, because having the full reassignment surgery shows that the person is fully comitted to being female and it also rules out any danger of someone identifying as female purely to gain access to areas where they can see females in a state of undress.

I don't believe all this 'female penis' stuff.
If you still have a penis and testicles you're still male.
You can't get any more male than a penis.

*fat

This debate is not constructive. It's an excuse, for many, to make hideous sweeping gleeful judgements. I don't care who goes in what box. I do care about barely concealed bigotry.

Good lord. There are people on this thread who are trans. It was a transwoman speaking at the feminist debate last Wednesday who was abused by transactivists.

Throwing around unsubstantiated accusations of bigotry has got us into this mess in the first place.

How would you personally envisage a 'constructive debate'? Anyone can talk here. And do. Mumsnet delete all personal attacks.

Talk!

Ffs. Just because gender dysphoria exists doesn't mean we have to pander to it.

Anorexia exists but we don't feel the need to pussyfoot around a 4 stone person who is vainly trying to find a millimetre of skin to pinch, whilst bemoaning how far they are.

HornyTortoise speaks for many of us.

Women are not asking for this change. We are the ones it will affect.
Its easy to be casual about the risks other people face. If you've never had to use a DV shelter or been in a psychiatric ward you have no idea how other women live.

I don't care what gender or categorisation anyone falls into. I don't take that into account when it comes to their opinion.

Who is talking about denying these people an opinion?

This is about same sex spaces. And if people think we need them or not, and also where the line is drawn.

Do you think we need same sex spaces (refuges for females, for example) and areas of life (lets take sports for this one)? If not why not?

Of course the irony is that (speaking for myself personally), Curry is precisely the sort of transwoman I would feel perfectly comfortable sharing space with, because she understands that there are circumstances when biology matters.

Gotta agree with this too. Ditto for Miranda Yardley and their partner Helen.

And probably...most people who would be known as 'truscum' by transactivists now. Old school transsexual people. Those folk who are dysphoric and such.

NOT these ridiculous people who believe that penises are female, and that lesbians are transphobic for not sucking dick. I wouldn't want them within 100 feet of me tbh. I don't think they are 'freaks'. I think they are woman hating homophobic bigots themselves. Again, fairly ironically given how often they like to try and silence others with that word.