Gender reassignment surgery... Would you then be happy with them in female spaces?

Who on earth are these violent willy wavers some of MN are imagining?

The same violent willy-wavers that are the reason trans women give for not wanting to use the male toilets.

FFS when will all you women learn that you are not as important as transwomen. So be nice. It doesn't matter if you have PTSD due to sexual assault, you accept that the nice woman with the penis bollock naked in front of you. You must also participate in standard locker room girls' talk, such as breast size and where to buy lingerie and of course compliment her on how gorgeous she is. Because us girls talk to each other like that in locker rooms and never about where to buy decent school uniforms or how you have 30 minutes to cook the dinner before you chauffeur your children about to sports activities all night then come back to do the ironing

I very rarely say this but I honestly have no idea what you're going on about Crowdo.

I have no doubt you're right, Pat, but I always bear in mind the advice that in reality you're talking to the lurkers. If you can politely ask sane and sensible questions, and the other person throws a hissy fit instead of attempting to answer, then you've won the argument in the eyes of the lurkers on the thread.

You cant reason with Crowdo, don't bother.

Crowdo - perhaps you could answer two questions.

1. What do you believe makes someone a woman?

2. If that answer is "how they feel inside their head" how do we tell when they are telling the truth - i.e. how in legal terms do we draw up a test which distinguishes between those people who genuinely have that feeling within their heads (by which test, btw, I am not a woman, despite having been pregnant and given birth) and those who are merely claiming to have that feeling for their own nefarious reasons?

When someone lies about, say, bank fraud or burglary, there's a fact of the matter - the bank records, their own bank balance, the finger prints at the scene - which can be used to assess whether they're lying or not.

With a person in a male prison saying "but I feel like a woman inside" there is no way of distinguishing whether that person really does feel that way (leaving aside the whole issue of whether that feeling is rooted in some sort of neurological reality or is in fact a delusion) or whether they're lying about it. (And the professional body of psychiatrists who work with prisoners raised this as a concern in evidence submitted to Maria Miller's select committee - they thought that there was a real and statistically significant danger of a substantial number of men "identifying as women" either to get into prisons considered more comfortable, or to get access to a pool of literally captive female victims. Not trans people, before you cry "wah transphobic bigot, saying all transwomen are rapists", but men pretending to be trans). If self-identification goes through as a law, the only evidence to be adduced for someone's trans status will be what they say about the contents of their own head. You just have to take their word for it. And that's a lousy basis for legislation.

The women I feel great compassion for are those who have to share a prison cell with a man who has had his penis removed.

Not just males with their penis removed. Males with fully intact penises. AND as if that wasn't bad enough, males with fully intact penises who are in jail to begin with for raping females

And this is not scaremongering. Its happening. Currently.

I've been sexually assaulted before by a woman. Does that mean you're not allowed in a changing room with me?
So, would you feel more comfortable/safe in the male changing room? If not, why is that?

What you seem to be not getting, perhaps purposely, perhaps not...is that changing rooms are segregated by SEX. If you do not think there should be sex segregation in any areas, that makes sense. Its a view I completely disagree with, but one I can make sense of. What makes no sense whatsoever, is to keep segregated areas and allow both sexes to use both....

Of course changing rooms and such are not the only issue. Hows about prisons? Or sports for example. Males have a clear biological advantage over females, that much is clear by checking up on speeds and such between the best rated in each sex.

Noticed you have called us all disgusting and flounced already though. But meh. Half had this written out before I noticed that and didn't want to chuck it.

I am sorry you were sexually assaulted by a female. I truly am. This is not an argument for allowing males into female areas though.

It's so enormously surprising that crowdo flounces as soon as she gets asked to justify why the feelings and comfort of trans males are more important than female rape victims and DV victims.

I'm sick of being called a 'vagina bearer' or a 'person with a uterus' or 'cis'

It's OK to insult us.

I think you've all own goaled yourselves enough.

Oh the irony! If you're doing activism on behalf of your trans friends, you're not making a very good job of it.

'I'm absolutely sick of seeing this shit on MN.'

I'm sick of being called a 'vagina bearer' or a 'person with a uterus' or 'cis' or anything other than what I am: a woman.

I'm not interested in continuing to have a conversation with people who use ridiculous arguments about trans people being rapists

No one said that applied to all or even most trans males. It 100% definitely applies to some. You're lying. And I don't think you're on this thread in good faith.

And now I'm being insulted by being called a man.

How am I supposed to know how you identify?
I automatically assumed, from the way you wrote and the way you refuse to even consider some of the replies, and the way you talk over everybody, and act as if we're all beneath you, that you were male. Because that's how a lot of males act.
That's why I automatically assumed you were male.

My apologies for getting it wrong.

It's only the Transactivists I see sinking to using vile language and swearing at people. I've never seen this from the women arguing for biology.

I had a tour around a women-only club recently. There was a woman also on the tour who very clearly identified as a man. I commented to my friend that it took some cojones to not only identify as a man, but to identity as a fat, badly dressed, 50-something, rather unhygienic man with a cheap pinstripe suit and considerable dandruff as a style statement. And further cojones to think it was OK to join tour around an all women's club in the circumstances, not engage with the other people in a friendly inclusive way, slam doors in people's faces, and not think other people might be a bit put out at your behaviour, because you had nailed the art of being an inconsiderate middle-aged man so completely.

Because that's what it comes down to, doesn't it? Respecting the feelings of others, and not imposing your body odour and personal space invasion on them just because you feel you should have the right. This applies to both genders IMHO.

I am still puzzled why this person wanted to join an all-women's club whilst identifying as male. I think by the end I was thinking the whole single gender thing was completely anachronistic, actually.

Some of you are truly fucking gross .

I'm not reading another word of this vile shit.

Such rude words.

And now I'm being insulted by being called a man.

I think you've all own goaled yourselves enough. I'm not reading another word of this vile shit.

Everyone who is ok with gender neutral spaces is welcome to use them. No one is trying to stop you.
You dont have the right to impose them on women.

Crowdo - some people are just not nice, no matter what they identify as. Being trans will not turn bad people into nice ones. It would be good for everyone if it did. But it just does not happen.

The majority of trans activists are rapists? Bloody hell. You really believe that bollocks?

You said 'violent willy wavers'. TAs regularly show how violent they are, and these are the people who believe penises are female and so on. these are the people pushing for 'self-identification' laws.

Transactivists are the very same people who planned violence against female people, and then carried it out fairly recently. A 60 year old female was punched in the face by a bunch of males. what was her crime? Wanting to discuss planned legislation that will take womens rights back years. At the same event, transactivists attacked a transwoman.

In a nutshell^ With proof also...so you know we aren't making it up. As of course thats the next logical step in your argument.

Maybe worth watching a few videos on that channel. Magdalen is a lesbian woman who was removed from the LGBT group at her uni for saying she would not consider a male as a sexual partner. And she does a fantastic job of showing how the transactivists line, is deeply homophobic.

So yeah.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3036489-Woman-attacked-by-transactivists-at-speakers-corner-part-deux?pg=1

The women I feel great compassion for are those who have to share a prison cell with a man who has had his penis removed. Or share a rape support group with a man , or have an intimate medical examination. Or be beaten in a sport after spending years of their life training .

Women in prison are some of the most vulnerable in our society. Almost all have had suffered neglect and abuse in childhood and addictions, mental health problems , homelessness and violence in adulthood. They have been prostituted and raped by men and now you expect them to share a prison cell and shower with one. Because, you know, of his feelz.

Yes, that's fair and compassionate. These women's feelings and safely don't matter do they? Not compared to men's.

So It's not really about me and my middle class need to show how 'right on' I am about sharing the office loo with Robert from the third floor who now identified as female. Or even Richard who is also still a man but has no male genitals.

Crowdo isn't interested in other's opinions.
Only those that align with his own.

See, it's frustrating to have other women say "yep, I'm ok with it"(having a male in my changing room as long as he hasn't got a penis)" WITHOUT them extending their thinking to: "however I know that many women are profoundly unhappy with them being lumped in with male people, regardless of pre/post op penis status, so I CANNOT advocate this be enforced upon other women."

If you're OK with it, bravo, lobby for a third space where transwomen and likeminded women can share. It'll be full of transwomen and all the women who are OK to share with them. Just leave SEX segregated spaces alone and don't ring them crashing down for others on your way out. Gender neutral for you, sex segregated for us.

Understand that you ought not to throw other women under the bus because you KNOW they will be adversely affected.