Gender reassignment surgery... Would you then be happy with them in female spaces?

Usually its me thats too slow, so happy I got in a few seconds before you

Nah but its always useful to have a few different comprehensive answers to stuff like this, if for nothing else, to educate lurkers in whats actually going on, rather than what they are told is happening by TAs and such

I was too slow

I don't have a link but I think the claim that puberty blockers are reversible comes from how they've been used in the past - ie if a child takes them for a year or two purely to halt precocious puberty, then comes off them, they then go through puberty as normal.

In that sense they are reversible but obviously in the case of transing kids, they may well take the blockers for a whole lot longer in the first place, and then they usually move straight onto cross sex hormones - so totally not reversible as they then never go through actual puberty. Just another example of the way the TRAs and their allies twist facts to suit their own agenda.

And of course the side effects we're now hearing so much about are just not reversible. Many women who took Lupron, I believe, have been left with serious and lasting problems.

So there are two different issues there - the consequences of the redesignation of PBs for "trans" kids; and the side effects.

Hopefully someone else will be along with a link or two!

Blockers are technically reversible, in that if the kid stops taking them they will then (in most cases) go through normal puberty, but tis still putting off much needed brain development, for what? So that IF the child is in the minority who is actually transsexual, they will be able to look a bit more like the sex they are wanting to mimic? The risks are just ridiculous.

dailysignal.com/2017/06/20/new-paper-says-puberty-blockers-arent-answer-gender-confusion/

Whereas 80 to 95 percent of children with gender dysphoria will come to identify with and embrace their biological sex, none of the children placed on puberty blockers in the Dutch clinic that pioneered this treatment came to identify with their biological sex. All of them persisted in their transgender identity.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/tag/puberty-blockers/

LOTS of articles about the effects and such of 'harmless and reversible' blockers

www.nwhn.org/lupron-what-does-it-do-to-womens-health/
www.consumeraffairs.com/news/new-report-describes-dangers-of-giving-lupron-to-kids-020317.html

It is genuinely scary how people are not aware of this. we have had parents of 'trans kids' on here telling us that mermaids also tell them blockers (and even cross sex hormones) are totally harmless and reversible, which is clearly and demonstrably, totally false.

Lupron...and how dangerous it actually is

And yet I was rounded upon by TRAs on twitter recently telling me that puberty blockers were completely reversible. I have been meaning to ask if anyone has good links about blockers?

So true, Horny. I know a few children who had to be put on puberty blockers after chemo treatment for cancer caused precocious puberty and these drugs have some serious side effects, too. They really should not be used unless absolutely necessary.

it's easier to be a transwoman than a man who likes dresses and make-up. When the reality is, if society wouldn't judge them on their likes, etc. they would be happy with the sex they biologically are.

Well yes, this is a big part of the problem. But the more we 'treat' males who simply like to wear clothing usually associated with females by 'accepting' them as women, the LESS males will feel comfortable just wearing dresses and we will just have more huge increases in people who aren't actually trans at all but classified as such, and also if Maria Miller gets her way...the end of single sex spaces.

I believe that if someone has had puberty blockers and never gone through male puberty, then had surgery, etc. I honestly don't see the issue

I absolutely believe anyone who puts their child on blockers (chemotherapy...for those who don't know, certainly not harmless) for reasons such as 'trans' are abusing their child. Obviously it is nice to give your kids what they want, or think they want...but a kid at 8 or 9, well quite bluntly they wouldn't be able to make any other permanent life changing decisions, so WHY this? Why are we sterilizing kids, blocking brain development and such?

A lot of brain development happens during puberty, so it is no surprise to me that 100% of kids put on blockers, go onto cross sex hormones, as their brains have not developed properly and they will be stuck in the frame of mind of a 9 year old...which sadly is...I like playing with dolls and wearing skirts so I am a girl...due to ridiculous stereotypes and parents/peers that enforce 'gender' rigidly.

I feel extremely sorry for parents today, being frightened into going down the blockers route by organizations with ulterior agendas, such as mermaids. Parents being told that if you do not shove your child onto dangerous drugs that are very likely to cause them serious health problems, they will commit suicide. 'Backed up' by totally false stats on it. Quite what are these organizations getting out of this? I fully believe in 10/20 years once this generation of 'trans kids' grown up and realise what has actually been done to them...there will be no end of lawsuits and this whole ridiculous thing will be stopped dead in its tracks and we will look back on it with a very 'wtf were we thinking' attitude. Its just a shame that so many kids will be collateral damage in it when if people just thought rationally, and mermaids and their ilk stopped scaring people...the damage could be minimized.

Yes a few of these transkids could actually turn out to be transsexual and want to modify themselves in adulthood. Why not wait til then? Why the rush, and the not caring about the 80% desistance rate. Essentially, 4/5 kids with 'gender' issues as kids, grow out of it when simply left alone to discover themselves. And most of these 4/5 turn out to simply be gay. Pushing kids to go on blockers is essentially as someone said (not sure if it was in this thread or not, but I copied this on my FB status also) 'transing the gay away'. Modern day eugenics. And widely supported due to huge media manipulation and pressure from males with AGP. Its barmy really when you think about it properly.

TurquoiseChevrotain

Thanks for answering. I see where you're coming from, now.

I agree with BigDeskBob. The last thing I want to do is encourage surgery and medication in children.

And it is being encouraged. Many late transitioning men would give their right arm to look more female. If you go online to any of the trans sites where people are wondering if they are trans. The answer is usually a vehement yes.

It supports the narrative that they always knew. When in fact that's often not the case. Again, just look at the online discussions.

It's no surprise that the sites for parents of trans children recommend the first thing you do is stop them going online.

Beachcomber

The question you are asking women is really "what sort of man would you be willing to have enter women only spaces".

To which my answer is " no sort as then those spaces are no longer women only

Nailed it.

You make it sound so simple beach

I've always been a put up and shut up person, I don't like to cause a fuss and im.nive to people as a rule. I wait patiently of someone's taking a while, I smile at people dealing with screaming kids, hell I stand there talking to kids if they approach me and start talking, I'll lend you 50p5if yoir scrabbling for bus fare change, I'll talk to anyone and everyone I don't care if you are a Martian.

I've put up with alot over the years in the name of keeping the peace and keeping punters happy at work. I take comments I even take hands where they shouldn't be and by God I've taken some abuse from people to avoid being called ageist or disablist or racist and i recuse most the time to succumb to stereotypes in how I treat people just to prove the point that you shouldn't judge or make assumptions etc and I've kept doing so even when it's backfired. Im.not "phobic" of anyone. I do t care what you wear or do to yourself.or what you look like.

But that's not the message o wabtbto send to my kids. I don't want them to put up and shut up. That's taking things to far. I teach them to be kind and patient and treat others as they wish to be treated.

But it's not a big ask that they are comfortable and confident with who they change with or deal with in various situations.

If there was a way to somehow ensure that the only people it would let in were the genuine transsexual People, those like curry and the others who are just going about their business quietly and causing harm to no one then it would be ok.

But that's not how it is is all or nothing and we just can't or at least shouldn't have to have that we and dont deserve the abuse for saying that.

And your right beach the complications are all in the million scenarios we are conjuring up in our head trying to justify things when it is that simple. No men in X space.

And totally agree with the pp who said that why is making women uncomfortable preferable to actually dealing with the men causing the problems

"I believe that if someone has had puberty blockers and never gone through male puberty, then had surgery, etc. I honestly don't see the issue"

I'm against this because it encourages the medication of children. We will be forcing children to make life changing decisions at 9, 10 and 11 years old. Puberty is an important part of growing up and halting it will just isolate them further from their peers.

Prickly you are spot on there actually.
I lurk on these threads more than I post as everything I want to say is always said far more eloquently by other posters.

And I just get too wound up by posters like Crowdo who are just so ignorant it's painful.

The question you are asking women is really "what sort of man would you be willing to have enter women only spaces".

To which my answer is " no sort as then those spaces are no longer women only".

It's very straightforward.

Feminists know that any erosion of women's rights must be taken seriously. Precedents are often a threat to women and that is the case here. Anyway it's a moot point as currently we are not allowed to differentiate between post op transwomen who are attracted to men and intact transwomen who get hardons from listening to women toileting.

Regarding sport, the differences between male and female are not all about puberty and testosterone - males are physiologically stronger from infancy.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12147825

"The reasons for the striking sexual dimorphism in muscle, fat, and bone volume in prepubertal children are unknown. Considerable evidence indicates, however, that during the first months of life the gonads secrete sex steroids (48–50), and there is an increase in leptin (51) and free insulin-like growth factor I bioavailability (52). The precise function of this hormonal surge is yet to be determined. However, as many of the physical changes during the pubertal transition (such as the accelerated growth and the dimorphic increases in fat, muscle, and bone mass) are mediated, at least in part, through sex steroids, leptin, and insulin-like growth factor I, it is reasonable to suppose that there is a similar relationship between these regulators and the increases in fat and musculoskeletal development during infancy."

TurquoiseChevrotain

I'm interested in the reason for your opening post. Are you a transwoman? Do you, yourself, see a distinction between pre-op and post-op? (Whether you are trans or not).

TurquoiseChevrotain

Also, if a woman gets surgery to add a penis, if she used it to rape someone, would it actually be sexual assault with penetration? As women cannot rape??

A microscopic percentage of women actually have phalloplasty. Have you seen what it looks like?

It's completely unfunctional. It can't get hard without an additional mechanism. Either a steel rod, or a pump.

It's a pointless question.

Also, if a woman gets surgery to add a penis, if she used it to rape someone, would it actually be sexual assault with penetration? As women cannot rape??

It would be rape in Scotland. Rape is the insertion of person A's penis in person B's body. There is no reference to man or woman or sex or gender in relation to either the perpetrator or the victim. "Penis" includes a surgically constructed penis.

*around

I realise that there have been cuts to mental health support in general but I really don't think it's a coincidence that support for gender dysphoria was cut round about the same time trans activists started taking hold.

IAmEatingACurry Am I right in thinking that issue is separate from the issue of cuts to services?
I know there are terrible waiting lists for counselling ATM, but its usually there.

Well said Curry. Such an excellent point about psych help not being offered.

To be fair to crowdo, she is only trying to protect what she sees as a marginalised and vulnerable group of people.

I think she assumed that we are coming from a place of hatred, and hadn't realised that this is a position most of us have reached over time and from our experience. I think it is naive (or brave) of her to expect women on the feminist section of a parenting website to forget biology and put men first.

I hope she comes back and reads what has actually been said on this thread, not what she thinks has been said. Because she is angry with us for no reason, we are not against trans people, we are just trying to maintain our boundaries.

Frankly, I don't want to see anyone put in a position where they need psychiatric help be denied it, for whatever reason.

Except that is exactly what is happening.

It is becoming increasingly difficult to get any mental health support for gender dysphoria or in some cases, even impossible.

If you're a teenager or young adult suffering from crippling gender dysphoria these days you tend to be given two options; start transitioning or go away. It's very difficult now to access therapy that is neutral in it's approach to transitioning.

I've lost count of the amount of money I've spent over the past couple of years, how many therapists I've had to go through and how many miles I've had to travel just to find a therapist who was willing to be neutral in their approach and not start from the "but you're a woman!" point of view. Every other therapist I spoke to had the attitude of "well you don't really need to speak to me, you've taken hormones, so now you just need to have some surgery and everything will be okay!". Sorry but it doesn't work like that.

Nobody here thinks transwomen should be treated like freaks or that we're all rapists. Where are you getting this from?

Who on earth are these violent willy wavers some of MN are imagining?

The same violent willy-wavers that are the reason trans women give for not wanting to use the male toilets.

Now that's what I call an Own Goal.
Crow, how do you explain that?

You say that male violence is exagerated,
But, you don't want to use the male toilets because there are, wait for it
Lots of Violent Males.

You've contradicted yourself so many times it's laughable.

Perhaps you are not the right spokesperson for 'The Cause'.