Gender reassignment surgery... Would you then be happy with them in female spaces?

And may experience more violence once they 'have transitioned'/'are transitioning' (as trans men) although this seems to be rarely talked about in the media.

4thwavenow.com/2016/04/27/shrinking-to-survive-a-former-trans-man-reports-on-life-inside-queer-youth-culture/

I wonder if being a target of violence or abuse is much more widely (proportionately) represented in the lives of trans men (females) than trans woman (males). I have no idea but it' a guess.

www.advocate.com/commentary/2015/07/14/op-ed-breaking-my-silence-trans-man-who-attempted-suicide?page=0,0

And autism is massively over represented in trans or vice versa, can never remember how these things work.

Italiangreyhound

Anorexia is overly represented amongst women who are trans.

The theory being that because they suffer from discrimination and hardship, they turn to anorexia as a means of control.

However.

Last year I was reading about the specific brain differences between people who are trans and people who aren't (not to be confused with the differences between men and women).

I'm not a scientist. But the link I was reading let me directly to a link where probing a certain part the brain helps with anorexia.

Perhaps it comes from the same place.

PS I ma taking a position, I am thinking about the 'issues.'

Datun I do wonder what other factors female trans kids and teens may have in common (beside being trans). This is not to say, whatever they have in common will be in common for all.

No

Italiangreyhound

How extraordinary.

I'd love to see a similar study done on girls who become trans.

news.berkeley.edu/2010/09/17/puberty/

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/mar/28/early-puberty-absent-fathers

I have heard girls with no father figure at home go through puberty earlier!

It seems to be decided by weight, hight, size, protein?

I just find this subject quite interesting.

Me too. Despite being intensely aware of how it could disadvantage females.

I believe puberty, certainly in girls, is getting younger and younger.

Statistically is that innate? Something in the water?

I'm not sure how we could blame society?

Parental nutrition maybe?

Either way, it looks like these things might be on a hair trigger, and we can influence them in the blink of an eye.

Datun my only interest is really are these changes innate or are they things we as parents/society control.

The fact girls start puberty earlier seems innate (to me). It doesn't so much matter to me if boys start toilet training later if it is innate.

I have a dd and a ds, looking at ds at 7, his physic looks so much like a 'typical boy', male. It does seem innate. However my ds is a very typical 'boy' in interests and my dd was not a typical girl in interests, and these things are not innate and do not bother me one bit.

I just find this subject quite interesting.

This is the bit that gets me.

If we were not always required to prove that girls were just as good as boys maybe we would be interested in these differences.

Maybe we should be saying why can't boys read body language as easily as girls. Why do they lag behind in toilet training, etc.

Personally, I think comparisons are pointless. But why are some things valued over others? When whatever skills girls might develop sound bloody important to me.

Certainly of no less value.

TurquoiseChevrotain, This is a bit more what I was thinking of...

www.researchgate.net/publication/224914505_Physical_Fitness_Differences_Between_Prepubescent_Boys_and_Girls

(a cross-sectional study involving 312 children -10.8 ± 0.4 years).

"The boys presented higher values in all selected tests, except tests of balance and flexibility, in which girls scored better."

"... differences in the physical fitness were greatest in the explosive strength of upper (p ≤ 0.01, η(p)(2) = 0.09) and lower limbs (p ≤ 0.01, η(p)(2) = 0.08)"

"The physical activity in the girls, and the endomorphic and body fat in the boys, did not have a significant effect. These findings can help in the planning of activities that take into account the success and motivation of both boys and girls and thus increase levels of physical activity and physical fitness at school. However, in prepubescent children, one cannot neglect the influence of genetic determinism, observed from the morphoconstitutional point of view"

Physical Fitness Differences Between Prepubescent Boys and Girls (PDF Download Available). Available from: www.researchgate.net/publication/224914505_Physical_Fitness_Differences_Between_Prepubescent_Boys_and_Girls [accessed Sep 22, 2017].

But I agree most of these things are post puberty, but a few are not.

TurquoiseChevrotain which bit did you read?

I would not say that Babycentre was the diffinative authority but at

www.babycenter.com/0_raising-boys-and-girls-differences-in-development_3659011.bc

Was it the first bit:

"Between the big growth stages of infancy and adolescence, boys and girls grow in height and weight at about the same slow but steady rate."

If you read on "There aren't notable differences between the sexes until late elementary school – that's when girls start to grow taller faster, although boys catch up and exceed them within a few years."

Boys gross motor skills develop slightly faster, girls fine motor skills grow fast, this could be training as boys may be given a ball and girls a pencil first, but I think most parents would universally give a ball before a pencil irrespective of sex.

"Boys are also more physically aggressive and impulsive, as revealed by studies of their brains. The pleasure center of the brain actually lights up more for boys when they take risks. That's not to say that girls aren't active risk-takers, only that, on average, boys are more so."

Again this could be training.

It then goes on to point out the type of home you are born in may influence things.

"Researchers say it's possible that sex-related genes or hormones account for the different ways the brains of boys and girls react to human speech." More boys are late talkers etc. Although again this could be accounted for by the way children are socialized.

"Girls tend to be better at reading nonverbal signs, like tone of voice and expression, which also makes them better communicators early on because they can connect feelings and words faster." Again is this training or a natural ability? I don't know.

Again not sure of the reason... "On average, girls are potty trained earlier than boys, though it's unclear whether this is due to physical or social differences."

"Girls enter puberty about one year before boys."

"Researchers continue to study the developmental differences between boys and girls and what causes them, but it's important to remember that biology alone doesn't determine the kind of son or daughter you'll have. Exposing your child to a wide range of activities and experiences is the best way to support a well-rounded, active child."

So it's not clear why there are differences but it seems there are. None of these differences mean girls are better or worse than boys or more of less likely to succeed etc. If we were not always required to prove that girls were just as good as boys maybe we would be interested in these differences. Of course the brain is very plastic so we may never know if these things are all just learnt.

www.babycenter.com/0_raising-boys-and-girls-differences-in-development_3659011.bc

I think there is a difference pre puberty, biologically speaking.

Oh dear, I didn;t actually see the post Elanetical put about this. Yes, that is a much more reliable source than my memory xD

Also searching now (should have searched before posting really) all I seem to be able to find are blogs and such that state there is no difference. So maybe I just read opinion pieces rather than actual medical studies.

Yeah, I think studies have shown that younger kids there is no difference at all, and up to about 11-12 there is a difference, but barely. This is from memory though, but fairly sure this is how it is.

Same happened to me assignedperfect (last night) - you can remove the number again from your account. I think it happens if you're tweeting repeatedly and rapidly about the same issue - they phone you with a code to enter.

I've kind of been through the full spectrum of thoughts on this as I've learned more about the issues.

Historically I thought of trans women as the, for want of a better word, true transsexual; someone who have gender dysphoria, was massively unhappy with their physical body, had probably had or was on the waiting list for very invasive surgery. I felt sympathetic, and didn't see the harm with these people using the same loos, for example. And I think this was a courtesy which a lot of women were more than happy to extend.

However trans has now become a very broad umbrella term and those people are now a minority; a small proportion of TW have full reassignment surgery, many are not on proper hormonal regimes (either not at all, or buying hormones online with unpredictable results) and many do not have true dysphoria. AGP has been covered upthread.

And that causes a problem - how is a woman supposed to tell the difference at a glance? And the reality is, we can't. You can't tell by looking at a clothed person if they've had full reassignment surgery or if they've had no treatment at all and are just the proverbial man in a dress.

The change in numbers of people calling themselves TW and the change in what we class as TW means that for me, the majority of TW do not belong in woman's safe spaces, and unfortunately that means that in a scenario which depends on woman (and men to an extent) self enforcing (like toilets, changing rooms etc) I now feel that we have to say no to all TW simply because otherwise there is no way for it to be managed.

Longer term female spaces - say halls of residence, prisons etc - are a bit different in that evidence can be gathered and an individual decision made and as a result I would say that in those situations we could possible permit full post surgery transsexuals subject to appropriate vetting and individual consideration. But I would say the criteria would need to be strict and the evidence provided fairly extensive and even then I'm not sure because I dislike the idea that this could encourage people to go through such extensive surgery.

In the current world we're living in and seeing the incredible violence, misogyny and sheer hate towards women which is permeating through large elements of the trans activist movement then I would say no.

Thanks to both of you, that's great.

Twitter locked my account, fuckers. Demanding a phone number to unlock. No chance