Woman attacked by transactivists at speakers corner - part deux

Gender as a social contract is not an 'idea' it's the very definition of the word. In the dictionary the definition is

'.
the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).
'

Whereas sex is

'Either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.'

Again I'll shout it loud and say it proud , ill sky write it in the sky and interpret it through the medium of dance. We don't care what you want to present as, we have no issues with people wearing what they want or calling themselves what they want, but the fact is no matter how much surgery you have you will never change sex and saying you can is deluded.
Gender bend all you like, in fact we encourage it but it doesn't ACTUALLY make you a woman.

What I don't understand is why if there is a mismatch between body and brain we accept treatment is to change the body, not the brain.

Quite, JAPAB has been hanging around on FWR since forever being a deliberate contrarian, mansplainer and derailer. His relatively new-found interest in trans is just the latest stick he's found to poke us with.

Being a woman is not a feeling in a man's head.

Mistakenly thinking you have such a feeling is not an excuse for hitting women.

But trans DOES Intrinsically reinforce gender roles, the only time it doesn't is if someone has body dysmorphia (in opposed to gender dysmorphia) and those cases must be very rare.
I'm not saying every single trans person is trying to reinforce stereotypes, in fact I'm sure most of them are not, BUT that doesn't stop the fact that in order for trans to exist then gender (and it's stereotypes) must exist as a real thing.
I doubt it's conscious but how can you 'feel like a woman' without relying on these gender stereotypes.

And yes 'cis' people reinforce them too, but that's not what we're talking about. We'll fight against it there too.

This is a thread about violence against a woman. Please stop engaging with the serial derailer who wants to make it all about him and his ponderous analogies.

Now the "die terf scum" has spilled over into RL violence can't something be done about all of that vitriol on social media.

I thought there were laws about using social media to incite violence? Shouldn't the police be doing something?

Are there any gender critical legal types about?

Thought so Zolah/misshaversham.

Story on the news this morning about the extremely high rates of depression in young people.

cheesetoast, Not sure what assertions I am making about all trans people.

Again, this wouldn't be an issue if we weren't talking about the chemical castration of pre teenage children, in order that they fit in with gender stereotypes.

There are different strands going on. This one started because of the assertion that trangenderism enforces gender roles, as in intrinsically. Of course some specific trans people do.

JAPAB always does this, guys.

There is a poster here with long term form for derailing and dominating a thread for their own reasons as seems to be happening here. May be better not to engage. These threads are so important for posters still blind to what is happening, several have confided that they have found it useful. It's the circular and frustrated arguments that have been had many times that put off lurkers and anyone but the very committed continuing to read.

I don't feel like a woman. I don't even know what that means.

Yes, there are men who think they are female. I find it fascinating that society is encouraging this delusion.

Everyone knows that they are not female and hence not women.

I can't believe we are having the mad scientist body swapping analogies discussion again.

Someone taking a sentient adult who has grown up with one body and swapping it for another would cause distress. No need to change sex to do so. Swap me for a 6ft leggy supermodel and I'd still be distressed!

That's not the same as stating you feel like the opposite sex when objectively that's not possible because woman is not a feeling. It's not a feeling inside a woman's head, so how can it be a feeling inside a man's?

JAPAB

"Because it says if you want those gender roles you must be that sex.

You can't be a man who likes floral material, crying at films and cuddles kittens. That must make you a woman.

You can't be a woman who is competitive, ambitious, opinionated and a leader. That must make you a man."

^^ current guidelines for schools, (thanks Mermaids!) are along these lines. That's what we are fighting against.

Feminists on this board have been arguing at length for the Trans issue not to be understood as a homogeneous thing. We recognise the differences between a 45 year old crossdressing man, who dresses with a sexual motivation, and the 12 year old child who doesn't fit in with the heteronormative gender stereotype, and believes they need a sex change.

People on this board have been fighting for the law to recognise this difference.

JAPAB, with respect, you are doing exactly what you project onto Datun. You are extrapolating an idea of what Transpeople "are" based upon you experience, rather than understanding the situation based upon your experience plus that of others and then also the evidence. You have dismissed the latter two.

Again, this wouldn't be an issue if we weren't talking about the chemical castration of pre teenage children, in order that they fit in with gender stereotypes.

'Well I get paid less to do the same job, I am sorting out a cake for someone in the office because they are leaving, I am off to buy some birthday cards for my partners niece, no one thinks I'm funny anymore and I have to apologise more in emails'

Brilliant!

What difference would that make? A rapist isn't necessarily going to care about someone's gender, religion, sexuality or anything else other than physical parts

Exactly. That's why being a woman is not about your gender identity or sexuality or anything else but the biological fact that you are female, that's why a transwoman can't actually be a woman.

Then next time a woman is raped, because of her biology, and the way women are treated, perhaps the jury will say why the fuck didn't she just identify as a man? Job done.

What difference would that make? A rapist isn't necessarily going to care about someone's gender, religion, sexuality or anything else other than physical parts.

This is kind of an odd stick to beat the notions of gender or religion or sexuality etc with?

Datun It's entirely your point. First of all, no one can explain it. The people who feel it, or the most erudite person in the world, using their imagination. No one, not one person has ever been able to articulate it.

I'll have to disagree that it is. My point is that you are asserting things about a whole group, and its core concept, based on assumptions. And taking things that might be applicable to specific individuals and extrapolating them to the whole group. Tarring the whole concept with it.

Your response is to cite an individual who described her feeling of being a woman in gender stereotypical terms. Then extrapolate from this.

Nowhere have I suggested that there are not trans people who have concluded that they are men/women due to an affinity with stereotypes. Maybe that specific individual who describred is one of them?

You also mention that no-one can describe the content of the feeling/sense of being a man/woman (as if that is an easy thing to do with any feeling). Then assume that this means that any such sense or feeling is based on gender stereotypes.

Your assumptions and extrapolations leading you to the assertion that transgenderism, at its very core, is regressive and enforces gender roles.

The fact that we even have to get into these 'down the rabbit hole' discussions infuriates me.

Then next time a woman is raped, because of her biology, and the way women are treated, perhaps the jury will say why the fuck didn't she just identify as a man? Job done.

Or perhaps I can identify as a man and have lengthy and constant unprotected sex? With a man who identifies as a woman? Let him take the risk.

The word woman means something.

And it's not a feeling in a man's head.

There's more to being biologically female than just not having a penis, otherwise every man who had lost his penis in an accident would become female.

It's no surprise that someone who has had there penis removed would feel male, because they are biologically male with all the hormones that go with it.

Hormones also affect sex not just genitalia and not having descended testicles would not mean that the hormones would be female.

This is very unlikely to be the case for most transsexuals though, otherwise they wouldn't need hormone therapy. That's another example of intersex.

Whatever this feels like and whether someone can explain the content ofit, that does not affect my point.

It's entirely your point. First of all, no one can explain it. The people who feel it, or the most erudite person in the world, using their imagination. No one, not one person has ever been able to articulate it.

Funnily enough, a few years ago, they did articulate it. They said they felt flowery, vibrant and soft and empathetic. Until feminists said what the fuck are you talking about? I can show you a million women who don't feel that. And a million men who do.

And then they stopped describing it, because it's simply
not possible without reverting to stereotypes. Man made roles.

A man cannot feel what it's like to have a woman's body. To menstruate, gestate. Or not, given the biology that says he should. He can't know what it feels like to worry about being pregnant, or not being pregnant. He cannot feel what it's like to be treated as a woman, who has that body. Cannot feel what it's like to navigate life with that body. He cannot feel what it's like to have that body violated.

The material reality of inhabiting a body with the anatomical and biological features of a woman is not a feeling. It just is.

A man can feel feminine, effeminate, like all the things stereotypically associated with being female, it doesn't make jot of difference.

Male and female, men and women are categorised by biological sex. Because biological sex is what it actually means.

Well when I'm happy my heart rate slows down, I usually turn the corners of my mouth up into a smile. I become less vigilant of danger in my surrounding and tend to laugh more.
If you were to take a look at my brain you'd probably be able to see that I was not anxious by the parts of my brain that was active and that If you were to do a blood test you'd see that my cortisol levels were low.

My "sense of being a woman" persists only because I know that I am female. I actually don't believe that I feel like a woman, whatever that means. I just k ow what sex I am. Society tells us women must do this that and the other and I reject a lot of these. Does not erode the fact that I am one.

Okay. Explain that. How would you, with all your imagination, and every single word in English dictionary at your disposal, describe that.

Blimey, try describing what feeling happy feels like without referencing synonyms.

If a mad scientist body-swapped you your sense of being a woman might persist. Or if you want to consider something more realistic, then consider cases such as the one recently discussed on FWR about biological males whose external organs are missing or get removed, who are then raised as girls but something within them made therm think this wasn't right, and they later identify as men before they even find out about the biology.

Whatever this feels like and whether someone can explain the content ofit, that does not affect my point.

You are assuming that trans inherently equals the enforcing of stereotypes and telling people that if they like pink they are girls etc. That this is its core concept. And hence it is "regressive". This assertion is based on premises that are not a done deal.