What causes women to become trans activists?

Very interesting thread, the female support for the erasure of women as a class is something that needs to be discussed so we can understand and tackle it. But I think the idea that trans women are the same as born women has muddied the waters as women want to be seen as supporting other women, and the trans women happen to have the most power to have their voice heard due to male privilege

The whole trans thing was just taking off when I was at university, the young women who were already very conscious to be seen as involved with the LGB (the t arrived during my time at uni) were the ones who became handmaidens of trans activists. They were very much of the opinion that women had achieved equality to men now and were no longer oppressed in a meaningful way, whereas trans individuals were and so women should lend their support as a more powerful section of society. I think because we were so young, and these women were from hugely privileged sections of society (had been to elite boarding schools or had come to the uk to study from abroad) they simply hadn't any experience of the struggles women still face, as many of them come with age, wider experience and particularly motherhood. Their being female had never caused them any issues in doing what they wanted, and they didn't ever want to admit it was their wealth and the privileges that comes with that had protected them from sexism. The working class girls notably did not get involved, I imagine because they had experienced more difficulties in life due to being female than the uber privileged individuals who shouted the loudest to signal their virtue.

But slowly the more you read, the more you see things like "all cis people are oppressive, all trans people are oppressed damsels" and they're from people you respect and are well regarded. So you trust their view, and get sucked in. And it's from these social media spaces that the echo chamber begins.

This is what I was trying to say with my post as well; that's what I think has happened with those I know of who've fully taken in the trans activist line. They've read so much of this now and for so long that any deviation from it is unacceptable and probably makes you a "TERF" who's oppressing trans people.

At one point, the trans person in 'Transparent' goes to a feminist camp festival. Because they identify as a (trans) feminist woman. Needless to say, this does not go completely well, without hitches. I sometimes muse about how I would write some of the scenarios of the plot.

champagne sort of. I'm a young(er) gimmer, so about half a decade or so ago I was very into tumblr and what it did do was get me out of that casual internalised sexism hell hole that I was in from school, where casual sexism made you a Cool Girl. But slowly the more you read, the more you see things like "all cis people are oppressive, all trans people are oppressed damsels" and they're from people you respect and are well regarded. So you trust their view, and get sucked in. And it's from these social media spaces that the echo chamber begins. It's why the community works the way it does, also because you won't encounter a lot of right wingers on a day to day in internet circles, but radical feminists yes. So they are the worst. A lot of the worldviews are shaped by looking at the microcosm that is the internet then projecting it out to real life. They don't realise that most people don't give much of a thought to their "gender" beyond "do i have a vagina, yup, looks like i'm a woman and it doesn't mean i have to be any type of person as a result." No, rather they really think these mini-genders of "oh well i just don't feeeeel like a woman but i don't feeeel like a man" are useful, not realising the only place this "feeling like..." exists is online.

I wasn't very social at uni but I hated the fem soc until a few people did what they could, it was so wishy washy. But reading academic lit at uni actually challenged by TRA view.

I have a lot of friends who would be mortified to know and like many others I'd be subjected to ostracism - blocking, no platforming and being forced out of circled with anyone who still socialises with me shunned

@onecrazycook
You say 'These are people who have gone through huge personal trauma in an attempt to come to terms with the idea that they may have been born with the wrong gender.'
But why are they trying to change their sex then?

I'm sure being trans is often really hard, day to day. Feeling like you don't fit in, people staring, reactions from friends and family, discrimination at work. In many cases, as we know, there is a correlation between being trans and pre-existing mental health conditions. The many testimonies on MN from mothers of teenage girls identifying as trans boys make clear that these are not generally happy adolescents.

Life generally is easier as a non-trans person (unless you're Caitlyn Jenner) and that's where all the shouts of cis privilege come from. You don't have to accept the transactivist gospel to understand that.

Has anyone on here watched 'Transparent'? It covers some of these issues but my no means all. I enjoyed watching it and will watch the new series. I think the character development is interesting.

I have this conversation all the time with a family friend who is trans. She calls everyone cis at every opportunity and I'm like do you want to be called a trans woman every time I mention you or do you want me to call you a woman? Because I'm finding it hard to understand if you want to be a woman equal to me or if you want to actually dethrone me as the 'real'
woman.
But she also thinks sex is a social construct and I'm the one who's mistaken soooooooo you know

I also get tired of her pointing things out to me about feminism like I've never thought about it, I always just say yes I know, I'm a woman.

She's an odd one anyway because she's on the autistic spectrum and came to be trans very late in life and found it through the fetish community. She has bought hormones of the internet almost immediately after finding it and I'm sure the hormones are reinforcing her idea of being confused in her body. Like of course you feel weird in your body you've taken a shit load of hormones.

I also find it so annoying because certain things about being a man she's retained (I'm not even joking one of these things is offering to drive you out of tight parking spaces when you haven't asked, shown no signs of not being able to, and having been driving over 35 years and drives over a 300 miles a week, she did this is my mother who just rolled her eyes) and she LOVES the confusion she causes, we had this awful experience in a shop once where she was flirting outrageously with a shop assistant who was being out in such a difficult position because he wasn't flirting back but also didn't want to appear rude or transphobic but was obviously uncomfortable. I don't think his discomfort came from the fact she is a transsexual but more just that he didn't want people making reference to his cock at work.

I've known her as both a man and a woman and she was an odd man as well but I think it's worrying that people can just buy the hormones off the internet unregulated.

That's why their focus is on the women who aren't fulfilling their role of looking after everyone and putting men first.

But that is ironic too - if they label those women as 'trans', as they don't conform to sexual stereotypes, suddenly they are part of their group.

Yet when, those not conforming to sexual stereotypes acknowledge and identify with their biological sex, they suddenly become the 'enemy'.

That's really good to hear, fruitcider! It's not easy to change your mind, harder still to admit it, so fair play to you for being able to do it.

For many, everything is black and white. They see trans as oppressed, therefore anybody who isn't totally accepting is the oppressor. Comments show that many aren't even listening to alternative opinions.

Despite the clothing, trans ideology is very gender conforming. That's why their focus is on the women who aren't fulfilling their role of looking after everyone and putting men first.

Great post, fauchelevent!

It's funny. I used to come on here and shout "TERF". But the more I have thought about it, the more gender critical I have become and now I firmly believe that anyone with a penis shouldn't be in women only spaces. Sorry about that MN! Keep going, you are getting the message through to some x

I thought the same as you, spaghetti - along the axes of oppression, there has to be a point to the oppression - and that's the extraction of something, usually labour, from the oppressed class.

Which is why it makes no sense that "cis" (sic) women oppress transwomen, because, well - they don't have anything we want, so what would be the point?

What's happening in the world of trans men, by the way, does anyone know?

It also wholly aligns expressing an opinion that is not 'nice' or on message to the hearer with actual physical violence.

I think patriarchy does oppress everyone. Women, obviously. But also men who don't conform to patriarchal values. And men, who do conform, by selling them lies - although this is more tenuous, as the suffering and persecution there is a moot point.

I think arguments which engage in 'top trumps' in terms of suffering and persecution are always going to end badly, though. It should be avoided in my opinion. Talking in general terms can really minimise the real lived suffering and persecution experienced by individuals. Which, understandably, offends.

I think you're over-analysing but a few posters have hit the nail. I was a TRA. Very much "real feminists are trans inclusive!!" "Your feminism is bs if it doesn't include..."

It's as simple as it seeming like the natural progressive step, if you support women's & lgb rights. Naturally you also want to believe that why SHOULDN'T someone have the freedom to be whoever they want to be. And you don't consider shades of grey, not thinking this is akin to being a religious conservative nut that thinks men must remain real men cos god sez so.

Additionally you'll probably in a sjw environment which IS cultish. It's why every person who comes on here is so fucking dramatic and emotional. Do you ever see someone come on here, offer a reasoned calm view without hyperbole?
It's because seeing views like this is terrifying. You are never exposed to it - the outside world is viewed as those who are indifferent and therefore complicit in harm, right wingers/violent men and terfs who for whatever reason are the worst of the worst, and are responsible for actual violence. I think it's because the rw is irrational and no one in the cult would swing that way. But there is rationality in gender criticism and it's basically the voice yelling "the emperor has no clothes" which they really don't want.

So you are never exposed to this view and when you come across it you think it comes from miseducation, bigotry, all you need to do is just read this one article - not realising all the academic lit we've probably read. When you're then confronted with "why did we need to invent words for terms we already have?" "What is a woman?" You ever seen an answer that was unique? Man it's terrifying the answers are always "a woman is anyone who identifies as one" and with any further pressing, the whole house of cards collapses. So they'll either start really questioning and running away in fear to go back to the safety of the cult and the ideas that don't scare them. Because being a TERF is a terrifying thought. No one wants to be responsible for the death of hundreds of trans people, all you want to do is do good.

Only way out is to be exposed to radical ideology and realise you really can't answer those questions. I was always anti porn and very, anti-sex positivity culture. So I read a lot of blogs and lamented how "terfy" they were. I lamented how terfy MN is. But more and more I couldn't answer "whats the difference between transgender and transracial" and the TRA side answers were increasingly flimsy. Now, I am firmly out the woods.

So there you go.

And it was OK to metaphorically and actually make the tea for gay men because they weren't misogynist, they were oppressed too

Or as I like to refer to it, my university years I'm straight, but I was all in for gay rights back in the days when it was Gaysoc, latterly LGB (no T in those days). Sometimes it took over from my feminism - I was, shamefully, a bit of a cool girl feminist. Oh, 1992 version Baby Sophocles, your heart was in the right place, but you were a bit of a nob, love.

I like to think I've always been too sharp to have been taken in by the intellectual paucity of transactivism, but then I have always been a champion of the underdog and it's very easy to guilt me into caretaking others before myself, so I suspect that the younger me might well have gone to bat for trans rights...

The confused idiology is around privilege, 'cis' women are privileged over trans women because they were born biological women. So the oppression is saying anything that implies trans women are not 'real' women or doing anything like talking about menstruation that is triggering because they can't menstruate, which is 'literal violence' and 'erasing them' which is 'the same as murder'. This justifying the whole punch a (biological woman who doesn't fall over herself to put trans first) terf.

Or something. It's not easy to comprehend, it's not coherent, logical or rational.

OK - I've done what I should have done before and googled, and I'm wrong - it's just persecution. I have no idea where I got that idea from.. perhaps because of thinking of things like 'peasants being oppressed' there's always an amount of working for the lord of the manor included.

As you were.

I seem to be going off half-cocked a lot on word definitions recently....

I keep hearing that trans are oppressed - but I'm struggling to see how.

My understanding of oppression was that it required the oppressors to be actually extracting labour from the opressees - ie. the oppressors should materially gain whilst the oppressees lose.

So women are oppressed by men because by getting us to do all the wifework they gain benefit from our work.

What do 'cis' people gain from trans people? What labour are we extracting from them?

I am very old, and I can remember when some feminists got very excited about gay rights. I think the long ongoing slog of feminism got a bit boring, and it was good to have something new and shiny to play with.

And it was OK to metaphorically and actually make the tea for gay men because they weren't misogynist, they were oppressed too.........

There's a slogan popular among some people I know (though it's mostly used against homophobes and in favour of things like gay marriage) - Equal rights for others doesn't mean fewer rights for you. It's not pie.

Because as a concept that's generally true. Allowing gay couples to marry takes nothing away from heterosexual couples' marriages, for example.

But sometimes there is an actual or potential clash of rights/needs. It's not so much pie as funding that's the problem. There are going to be, for example, transpeople in need of refuge places as they flee abusive relationships (just as there is a need for refuge places for cismen in abusive relationships). The right answer is 'set up and fund more refuges for everyone', not 'cut down the number of places available to ciswomen and give them to transpeople/cismen.'