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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender critical people- do you use preferred pronouns?

81 replies

Lemonjello · 12/09/2017 14:29

I find this a really hard one, being very gender critical but also not wanting to offend. I'd be interested in other people's views and also, if you refuse to use them, is it a cross you would die on, so to speak? I.e. would you be be willing to lose your job for example. Can you in fact be fired for this?

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Lemonjello · 12/09/2017 16:42

Yes I totally agree. I think I'm interested in squaring it my own head, and this has all really helped.

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Butterymuffin · 12/09/2017 16:40

It's one of the least objectionable bits of trans politics for me. Politeness and consideration as others have said. I do think more allowance should be made for simple slips of the tongue, as it's hard to get out of the standard pronoun habits. But in general, if you refused to call someone by the name they wished to be called, that would be deemed rude and hostile. I don't see the need to be that way.

SophoclesTheFox · 12/09/2017 16:33

It's a tricky one. I have always used the names and where applicable the pronouns that I've been asked to, though I confess to an overuse of names to try to evade having to use a "she" or a "her" towards a male, and sometimes fudge with a "they".

I do get the analysis that says it's the thin end of the wedge, and compelling people to collude in something they know is untrue lays the ground for further encroachment - today it's a pronoun, tomorrow it's the word "woman" being stripped of any coherent meaning, and onwards until we have no language at all to discuss women's issues.

But I am also not a dick to people, and, like enough, it's not the hill I choose to die on. As someone said above, I try to separate the person from the politics.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 12/09/2017 16:33

I've never knowingly met a transgender person so it hasn't come up. I would probably use the preferred pronouns as I think that's polite. I wouldn't think of them that way though.

This, pretty much. I've met a couple and I wouldn't want to upset them, and the ones I have met haven't been the activist type, they've just quietly got on with things.
I don't consider them to be female (for the mtf) or male (for the ftm) though.

TooDamnSarky · 12/09/2017 16:30

In some cases 'they' is the correct pronoun :)

differenteverytime · 12/09/2017 16:29

Yes, it's when I relax my guard that things go wrong. In fact, I don't drink alcohol in the company of my friend for that reason. I'd known him for fifteen years before he transitioned, including a spell as flatmates. It's very hard not to deadname without making a conscious effort.

Lemonjello · 12/09/2017 16:29

And would using 'they' also be seen as misgendering do you think?

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Lemonjello · 12/09/2017 16:28

Yes totally like driving on the wrong side!

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TooDamnSarky · 12/09/2017 16:28

I think it also reall depends on the context in which you meet them.
It would be completely inappropriate for me, in my professional role, to use the wrong pronouns. Given the power relationship between me and the likely people involved that would be a form of bullying. Nobody should be forced to defend their views on such issues in the workplace.

SerfTerf · 12/09/2017 16:27

Yes, out of politeness. I have no issue with any individual.

My critique and unease is with some of the ideology and pop-theory.

TooDamnSarky · 12/09/2017 16:25

I found it a bit like driving on the wrong side of the road. Fine at first when I was concentrating really really hard. But as soon as I started to relax and think I had it under control I messed up.

IfyouseeRitaMoreno · 12/09/2017 16:25

I agree that it's best to make a distinction between a person as an individual and the activists that act in their name.

You don't know if that individual shares their beliefs anyway.

AssassinatedBeauty · 12/09/2017 16:24

Clearly I'm not going to deliberately upset someone who is vulnerable and as I've already said I'd be far too cowardly irl to stick my head above the parapet and make a political point.

GahBuggerit · 12/09/2017 16:23

I use they/them or their name.

differenteverytime · 12/09/2017 16:23

I don't feel that I'm complicit in a lie by respecting pronouns, because it's just an arbitrary fact of our language that the pronouns work as they do. But I hope my friend never straight-up asks me if I consider him to be a man, because I don't.

Lemonjello · 12/09/2017 16:22

I'm trying to think of a similar situation in which you consciously have to police your own speech to such an extent. I suppose it's like trying to avoid looking at someone's huge spot or something.

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MorrisZapp · 12/09/2017 16:21

I've never knowingly met a transgender person so it hasn't come up. I would probably use the preferred pronouns as I think that's polite. I wouldn't think of them that way though.

Lemonjello · 12/09/2017 16:19

Yes I agree re separating individuals from the general ideology/ activists.

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TooDamnSarky · 12/09/2017 16:19

Pronouns come up more than you'd think. I have found it extremely dfficult to get this right. You can intend to use their name or 'they' but pronouns are so common and natural that you have to monitor your speech extremely closely to stop them popping out. I have got it wrong on occasion despite my best efforts not to upset a vulnerable person.

differenteverytime · 12/09/2017 16:19

Yes, because of what sarky expresses very well. One of my oldest friends is trans and I wouldn't dream of upsetting him by refusing to use his preferred pronouns. I just wish that society's fucked-up gender expectations hadn't caused him to experience the word 'she' as a traumatic insult.

Lemonjello · 12/09/2017 16:18

And if you know you will be fired for not using them, isn't that similar to being forced?

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enoughisenough12 · 12/09/2017 16:18

respectful

enoughisenough12 · 12/09/2017 16:18

For me it's about being respectfu'. I will always address the transgender women that I know by their preferred pronoun - they are all kind and decent people and it's important to separate out individuals from the misogynistic activists who are causing so many problems.
Just because I have huge reservations about the silencing of women and obliteration of our rights, doesn't mean that I would disrespect individuals.
I'm not sure that it's an option to deliberately misgender people? Not because of a fear of being sacked but because it would cause so much hurt - and create divisions in the work place. I save my battles for ensuring that women are not 'thrown under the bus' by employers by removing single sex facilities etc and will keep battling at a strategic level in writing to MPs etc.

Lemonjello · 12/09/2017 16:17

If it was made a proper crime, (the way I think it may be in Canada?) would you support/stick up for someone who refused to use them?

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 12/09/2017 16:17

I'm trying to think, but there are very few occasions (if any?) when you actually need to use pronouns - if you are talking to someone you don't, and if you are talking about someone you'd just use their name or they/them.