Women in STEM - who is at fault?

I think parents are hugely responsible for lack of female representation in STEM. When I was in school 30 years ago many of my friends (and the brightest students) were discouraged from doing maths because it was "too hard". I have no doubt that with even a little encouragement they would have kept it up and excelled. I'm also sure it's still happening today.
A similar story to PricklyBall, my dd attended an after school computer class a few years ago. Out of 20 kids, only 2 were girls. These were 4 & 5 year olds so at that age it would have been primarly parents making the decision. The mindset of almost all the boys parents was that this was something their child would enjoy and benefit from, while almost all of the girls parents dismissed the opportunity. It's utterly depressing.
I am an engineer and have encountered sexism over the years, but would never have considered the environment hostile. I have had a rewarding career and would absolutely encourage girls to pursue STEM careers. Schools and wider society will play a part, but I believe the biggest influence will come from home.

I went to a university open day with my child and attended a talk about the M Eng. in product design given by a professor of engineering .

He gave a string of examples of male graduates of the course , the prestigious companies ( Apple, other IT companies, high end car manufacturers ) they worked for and the glamourous products they had helped design.

He concluded with a mention of one female graduate - she worked for Lego and had helped design the box for a lego kit aimed at girls. Just in case we had missed the point, he explained in detail how there was a calendar on the front of the box and she had chosen the date to match her own wedding date.

Because that's what being a woman in engineering is all about , right ? Men design Apple watches and Mazaratis and women get to chose the date on a toy box.

No, lots of working class women are stay at home mothers because they are paid less than their partners and thus for financial reasons find themselves the one who has to relinquish paid work to look after children.

The documentary included stuff like how caregivers subconsciously treat girl and boy babies differently. They put babies in opposite sex clothes and the caregivers offered a doll to the "girl" and robot to the "boy" subconsciously.

Woman "Here's some links to published scientific research that show across social class and sector, men have advantages over women in the workplace"

Man "I have had none of these advantages"

Woman , bangs head against wall

My personal experience is that coed schools and parents turn girls off STEM. I went to girls schools for secondary and at all of those schools you'd end up with girls doing STEM subjects. My Facebook includes people who studied Computer Science, Chemical Engineering, Organic Chemistry...

There was a good documentary on BBC called No More Boys and Girls which explored how to create an education that benefitted for both sexes.

Woman "men just don't and can't understand the struggles women face"

Man "tell me so I can understand"

Woman "here's a list of concrete examples"

Man "well I've never seen any of those things happen"

Woman

Part of it is because girls are, on average, better at arts subjects than boys are. So they tend to choose arts subjects more often as subjects are considered equal in the education system

I know this is way back in the thread, but I think that it is wrong. Girls and boys are treated differently from the moment their sex is determined. The way they are treated impacts the way the brain develops. I don't know if girls are better at art, and boys at science, but if that is correct, it's not an innate hardwired thing, it's down to conditioning since birth.

This isn't about you John.

It's about WOMEN IN STEM

*loathe

I have had none of these advantages.

I'd love to be a house keeper. I would have a meaning to my life and wouldn't be toiling away doing a job I loather for very little money. This would be a privileged position for me.

Lots of men don't have careers.

They have jobs.

This is the reason why many working class women choose to be stay at home mothers - because it's actually preferable to what their husbands have to do.

I sometimes think feminism these days is amounts to middle-class women wanting to get have glittering careers and make lots of money while all the other women and men can go jump.

Woman - Google is your friend . Also large buildings called libraries lend free books. Large retailers sell books online. It's amazing.

Man on board with hundreds of threads explaining the struggles of women.

Man: Explain to me personally the struggles of women.

Woman: How about reading the fucking threads?

Hmm..."men just don't and can't understand the struggles women face"

Man "tell me so I can understand"

Woman "Again, the assumption that it's womens job to educate men. And to justify their life experiences to them."

I could have had any career I wanted - I was an all round A grade student, but I chose teaching. No one ever suggested anything else. My parents didn't try to influence me - they just wanted me to be happy in whatever I did. No one else ever suggested any alternatives to me, apart from my English teacher who suggested I'd be a great social worker.

Do you think, had you been a boy, you would have been encouraged to do something 'more' with your potential?

www.uccs.edu/Documents/dcarpent/altruism.pdf

Shows how women's careers suffer if they don't do 'workplace housekeeping', whereas men who don't suffer zero consequences.

www.apa.org/monitor/dec05/tasks.aspx

Shows how men received more credit then women on joint tasks.

But no, there are are no advantages to being male at work

Please don't let John derail yet another interesting and important thread.

Men are often blind to it as well, as they are not on the receiving end

I was vaguely wondering whether one of the exacerbating factors in IT type fields that they may be particularly attractive to the subset of men with poorer social skills/'theory of mind' ?

It's been a while since I worked in retail, but back when I was the only female salesperson at a certain large electronics retailer (all other women were on the tills - I was dismissed out of hand when I applied for a tech role), at the end of the day when we faced up all the stock and generally tidied up a bit, I was always the one handed the duster. I was often one of the last out of the store as the men disappeared to 'go to the toilet' when the time came and ducked out of doing this bit of their job.

gender.stanford.edu/news/2014/why-does-john-get-stem-job-rather-jennifer

I've posted the link before. Identical CVs with a male name were offered higher salaries, and deemed to be more competent than the same CV with a woman's name.

The advantage to being a man doesn't even require you to be present.

John- have you ever been at a family gathering where the women did the cooking and cleaning up while the men socialised and drank beer?

That's male privilege there. I watch my mil with her gc- and right from the beginning the boys sit and play video games while the girls apparently prefer to "help" dust and hoover, and cook....

I don't think you know what 'rhetorical' means. A person asking a rhetorical question doesn't expect an answer- it's done to create a dramatic effect or make a point. You have done neither.

Perhaps you could to get back to the point of the thread, which is about women in STEM? Oh no that's right, you can't because you are man working in education and retail. You know nothing about the subject but you have just popped in to demand that women who DO know about it educate you and PROVE their own lived experiences to your satisfaction.

An excellent example of male privilege.

@Gentlemanjohn, with respect, we are talking about women in STEM industries and unfortunately for many, this kind of sexism is a daily chore.

Men are often blind to it as well, as they are not on the receiving end. I pointed out several incidents to my colleagues (all men), who had been in the same meetings and they hadn't noticed at the time, but did agree in hindsight. One then made an active effort to support me from then onwards, but the others forgot about it as it didn't directly affect them.

I also don't agree that men have no advantages from being male. This may be true in some very female-dominated sectors (such as early years childcare), but otherwise there are lots of published research studies showing that men have intrinsic advantages in the workplace.

Things like CVs with male names being more likely to get interviews (which is also why 'trans-women' who say they they gain no advantage from the patriarchy are not correct), to expectations for female colleagues to perform housekeeping roles (washing up cups etc.).

That's fine Errol - as I say I have no experience of STEM and am not authorised to comment.

John - maybe your sector is nowadays a shining example of equality and you're not privileged in your workplace. We are specifically talking about STEM fields. OK?