Why are feminists so aggressive?

Thank you for the links zebrasdontwearbras. I cheer when I listen to Germs dissect the weaselly arguments of nasty, little men. I want to punch the men for being so disingenuous though.

As if women haven’t earned their rage through millenia of years strewn with women murdered, raped, enslaved and denied.

You wonder why we’re not more aggressive.

Maybe this isn't the place for this discussion, tone gets lost and it feels like there's straw-manning some of my points. I am not telling women to be more kind, or they should obliged to reach out to change minds and "recruit".

Obviously we all had damaging messages growing up. Personally I find the messages around gender in recent years particularly urgent and a step backwards that is creating a time bomb of problems for the future. Especially when it is leading to adults now affirming "born in the wrong body" and medicalisation of children and a break down of safe guarding.

I am doubting I'll "find my place here" which is fine. It's no reflection on my feminist beliefs, I have read up extensively and learnt a lot, especially from the second wave. Real life conversations seem more productive for me anyway.

Hatful - we have all grown up with these messages - do you honestly think we haven't? Do you think feminists have been grown in an all female cave or cave - we all know this stuff.

Jeez - "Pretty Woman" was the thing when I was at Uni - you think that swayed me? No it did not.

My point is, no feminists are particulalry nasty to people on here - much more nastiness is seen throughout mumsnet's other forums. And we're not "recruiting" - if you find your place here, you're most probably a feminist - if not, well do some reading make the arguments against.

So be the person who reaches out, if that's something you feel moved to do. Don't expect other people to do it for you.

If you're called a handmaiden on FWR you really need to think about what you said.

Well that is my point, people do need to think more deeply, but will calling names make them think? A lot of women, especially younger women will have grown up with different messages about gender and "sex work is work", they probably know and are friends with trans people and are surrounded by a culture that does not encourage them to think about their rights and how easily they could be lost.

I don't think anyone is obliged to be nice, I think some home truths are very important, Magdalen Berns straight talking really opened my eyes. If someone is being ridiculous then ridicule it. I just don't want to push women away when they first start seeing the reality of the situation and are asking questions because that is where I started and my views did not change overnight.

"Becoming"? Does that request come with a pair of opera gloves and a tiara?

I'm cis northern, mate, we don't do any of that shit where I'm from.

Being "becoming" is just another stick to beat women. Men are never told to be "becoming" or nobody will listen. They are always listened to even when they are aggressive as hell. And have the power. Look at the men in power around you right now. Nobody gives one solitary fuck that Trump has been accused of rape and assault against women. That "grab them by the pussy" tape should have been the end of him - but it wasn't.

Women are held to such a higher standard. Even on this comparatively tiny internet forum. Trump assaults women - but women, be nice when you talk about this stuff.

'becoming'? That's delightful.

I have expended lots and lots of my time on FWR explaining how some of these issues look from my very specific perspective. I've tried to use the skills I have in communication over literally hundreds of threads because I genuinely care about the rights and protections of women and girls, to the point that I have stood on the streets on my day off talking about the GRC consultation.

When I first rocked up to FWR, the female socialization in me was horrified at the way well recognized names refused to play nice at all. That was before I even began posting. But I kept reading, because in amongst that bracing and uncomfortable rudeness, arguments were made and eventually I began to see they weren't being rude, they just weren't being endless deferential and caveating and justifying every single statement. No is a complete sentence is one of the most powerful statements I have ever gleaned from MN.

Look, if you don't like FWR, I'm not trying to make you like it or any of the posters here. None of us are trying to be your best friend and if you think we're all horrible harpies who just need better social skills, well that's your right of opinion. But all I am reading this evening is endless permutations of "You may speak the truth, but you say it wrong, so no one will listen." If you can't see that as just another compliance request, I really don't know what to say to you, but I will say you are likely to still get a bolshy reaction the women who have come through the radicalisation portal and seen that they are under no obligations to comply.

Some women even argue that men can be women. Profoundly anti-feminist.

Some women think pink-brain is a thing. Some women are anti-abortion. Some women are surrendered wives. These are not feminist viewpoints - own it.

If you're called a handmaiden on FWR you really need to think about what you said. It was probably either badly phrased or anti-feminist. We are well aware here that women fought against women having the vote. That women fight in favour of porn and sex work. Those are not, from my perspective, feminist viewpoints.

Ooh the whole thing is still on Youtube.

Obviously, I'm sure absolutely anyone who frequents the FWR section on mumsnet will be interested in watching this film about second wave feminism. I'm sure

If you are proud of your ignorance, well, you have to expect to be mocked for it

This is an example of naked aggression. Self righteousness is never becoming whoever wears it.

If we want more women to understand the issues then I think respectful debate is vital. That doesn't mean compromising, I changed my mind on a lot of things by listening to strongly held, passionately expressed views from women, but I think there is difference between disagreeing and debating, or ignoring if you don't want to engage, compared to getting accused of being a troll, handmaiden or told to fuck off for difference in opinion which I have experienced in the past and which for a time closed my ears to things I really needed to hear.

Sometimes I feel a little unsure about posting on here...not because I think feminists are aggressive but because some of the posters on this board are extremely articulate and knowledgeable. I often struggle to explain theoretical ideas I may have

i think we are all individuals, and some 'feminists' are actually quite aggressive. By aggressive, I mean angry and forceful and not open to disagreement or alternative viewpoint without personal insult.

I don't expect universal agreement when I post something but where there is disagreement, its almost always well-reasoned, articulated in a polite and not personal way, and you can engage with it

That's not necessarily true. Women can also be aggressive, totalitarian, and judgmental too. Certainly on here as well.

We each come from different backgrounds, and each have our own varied experiences; and we all have different personalities and characters.Just being female does not make you beyond reproach or question.

Totally, bemoremagdalen

My first sentence was to you - the rest aimed at people who moan at the FWR forum being.... feminist. I don't know if people that do this have come across feminism before - but there is a certain amount of anger involved - anger at women suffering centuries of dismissal and oppression, our voices never being heard - and I wonder if they've ever actually watched or read Germaine Greer?!

www.shesbeautifulwhenshesangry.com/

zebras, shit yeah, I don't mind the different voices. I just get tired of the ones that aren't really engaging, they're just belly aching about the women here being rude. I guess if that's what you think lifts women up and protects their rights then you can make your case. I reserve the right to put my energy into other pursuits than being a performing monkey for them as think if women were always 'civil' they would get further in protecting their only recently gained rights against the persistent onslaught of those who seem keen to roll them back.

People think I'm rude? You know what I'm gonna say, yeah? I'd rather be rude than a fucking liar.

It seems like some people may be interpreting other posters just not particularly clicking with them or wanting to be their friends as "nastiness" or "sexism", which is just silly.

Well it is the obvious answer, isn't it BeMoreMagdalen. Of course if people wanted to stay and engage, that would be fine too - they can rest assured that on Mumsnet, guidelines apply, and any feminist posting anything too ferociously vicious will probably be deleted. This is guaranteed if it involves any "misgendering"

But here, personal attacks aren't allowed, violent threats aren't allowed, and we're all anonymous. What's not to like for a discussion forum?

But your arguments may be up for rigorous disagreement. Or possibly some sarcasm. Maybe the odd meme.

Really enjoying all the threads on FWR this evening outlining why FWR is so bloody horrible.

I suppose "You could try fucking off and posting somewhere more to your taste" will just get me in trouble, right?

And before anyone calls that post aggressive, MRA is a movement grown in the 70s as a rebuttal to feminism. There are, it seems, men who object to women having equal rights to men, and they are on the opposite side to feminism, which fights for equality for women.

Significantly more sexist.

Feminism speaks to unearth, and describe, the centuries of injustice to women, in an unarguably male dominated world.

Calling feminists "sexist" is MRA talk. So pick your side, and be upfront about it.

I genuinely think that a large number of regular posters on here are significantly more sexist than most men if I'm honest.

Ha ha. Good one

Nobody is ultimately obliged to be nice to anyone else on here, but the long waffling 'justifications' I always read on here in response to criticism just seem to be excuses to me for the most part. I genuinely think that a large number of regular posters on here are significantly more sexist than most men if I'm honest.

That's their own prerogative but why not just own it rather than try and justify it with arguments that the large majority of women don't identify with.

I am not saying women should "be more kind" because how many times has that been used to shut down womens voices but as someone who is really quite new to this side of feminism it is off putting to get aggressive responses. I'm not abandoning my principles because someone was rude or snarky on the internet but it has put me off getting more involved and I know of other women who have felt pushed away for asking questons. I think a very small group use the "screw kind" as an excuse to bully. That's not the same as straight talking or just being blunt which I can respect.

Yes, this.

I have no problem being pretty direct, or even having an adversarial conversation.

But when someone come to say something and their wording is a little awkward, or they are clearly new to the subject, they don't toe the line about whatever they are supposed to think, whatever, and people jump down their throats, make obscure sarcastic comments, are extremely rude, try and draw them into traps, that's not respectful, and it's not arguing, and it's not being frank. Often all of this is even before they have any real idea what the person is actually trying to say.

I'm not sure why people imagine because before someone told them to be nice, and it was unjustified or an asshole comment, that makes it ok to be an asshole to other people who have no connection to those events.