Why are feminists so aggressive?

A feminist point of view is one that recognises the way in which women are oppressed by patriarchal society.

Taking that point of view the sex industry is an extension and expression of that oppression.

Somedyke, that's a really interesting perspective. I have always struggled with the discrepancy between how far I perceive the rights of gay men have changed compared to woman's rights. I believe my friend who was a gay man who died in the mid nineties would not believe the advances that have been made. I attributed this either to the fact that men are listened to more than women or that I couldnt understand the prejudice faced by gay men because i am straight. Your suggestion is a really interesting alternative.

If the op means why are feminists aggressive, then it's probably because we're all ugly, hairy, lacking humour and therefore scary, right?

If it means why are these boards perceived as aggressive, I think OlennasWimple has probably hit the nail on the head; there are a lot of posters here who are obviously very well educated, have done a lot of thinking and discussing and are able to articulate things very well. Then there's people like me who are feminist to their core, but who don't discuss it often, lack the coherent thought (or the ability to express it) and so just normally don't bother joining in.

It's a bit like the difference between talking politics in the pub with your friends, and talking politics in the pub with a bunch of PPE graduates/active politicos.

I genuinely have no idea what you're on about lass. This is a feminist board for feminists. Of course anyone can post here but the response from feminists will be from a feminist point of view

Likewise little idea what you are on about either. Given posters can't even agree on what a feminist is I'm unclear what you mean by "a feminist point of view".

What is the feminist point of view on the sex "industry" for example?

I had a long discussion with you Bertrand about some posters thinking they have the right to decide if a woman is a feminist or not. There was a long thread recently claiming that Mariella Frostrup was not a feminist because of some perceived misdemeanour. You consistently used the word non feminist to describe someone who disagreed with your version of feminism. Feminism should be a broad church and empower women to participate in discussion about the future of feminism. Not dismiss someone who expresses a non board approved opinion as a non feminist. It is so patronising and hostile.

"I think because I really, really don't understand why some people hate feminists so much."
Because what we are saying (well, us radical ones anyway) is extremely challenging and shocking. Okay, gay people have been saying equally challenging things as regards how gay people have been treated throughout history, in terms of what was done to them by the rest. But as regards gay folks (I don't really want to say gay and lesbian there because that brings women into it as well, so lets lump lesbians in with gay (men) and forget the other issues!), perhaps the difference is that once we have a few legislative advances (marriage, equal rights for gay couples when booking hotel rooms or ordering cakes etc), you have a system where for most people, they don't have to do stuff that is that different. It doesn't effect the (straight) man in the street. Because not all men have a gay relative or are gay. But feminism is different because the changes we are talking about will effect every man, since every man had a mother. So every man is involved, in principle.
So, in a weird way I seem to have argued that things like gay marriage (which I never expected to see in my lifetime!) were actually easier to obtain in the west, and despite the seemingly enormous and virulent hatred and violence aimed at many gay people and that still occurs.

Whereas for women? Feels like we have quite a few legislative changes, but making all of the changes I think we need in everyones home and family (since everyone has a mother, even kids with two gay dads) as regards women, that will seemingly take a lot longer. Because it is a much bigger change that is required. Society has managed to adjust to gay rights by making gay couples just like everyone else (and then you can flog them gay wedding packages hurrah!). The liberation part of gay liberation seems to have got lost when the claims that some people just were gay (but not many) and couldn't help it were used to promote gay rights.

I'm only ever aggressive with my feminism when people are shouting me down and being aggressive.

I don't see anything wrong with aggression, playing nicely hasn't worked, what are we meant to do? And the bar for aggression is set very low for women.

Also - why are feminists so aggressive? Because we are hysterical wimmin innit

I honestly cannot see anything aggressive on this thread. I have learnt lots from the feminist boards. I don't agree with everything (I am especially conflicted about the issues around trans). I have seen heated, robust debate but that's ok imo.

I think FWR is perhaps a bit more erudite than other bits of MN. I suspect if we did a quick poll, we would find that, on average, the education levels of regular FWR posters are higher than - say - regular Property & DIY posters*, and the level of discourse and rigour that gets applied to the arguments and discussions on here reflects that.

I can see that could be off-putting to someone who doesn't feel that they fit in.

I also think that non-FWR posters who tend towards the lib fem might find it an uncomfortable place to be (because we are mostly rad fem leaning on here, and being a minority is always uncomfortable). Plus it is very easy to take comments about a wider group (whether that's shaving, changing name on marriage, or whatever) personally when they are choices that we have made ourselves. No-one likes that, so are naturally defensive.

*Example chosen only because it's another board that I frequent, not to cast a slur on Property posters

I'm incredibly glad I found this board. If it means anything, I think the regular posters are fantastic and it's my favourite place to discuss things. I far prefer it to all other social media and find it extremely supportive. Thanks to all the posters who make it so.

I genuinely have no idea what you're on about lass. This is a feminist board for feminists. Of course anyone can post here but the response from feminists will be from a feminist point of view.

Saying other posters are lying because they put forward a point you don't agree with = not a good thing. That has happened recently.

You have said many times you're not a feminist lass. Has that changed?

No. What makes you think that? I've just twice now that I don't think any of my opinions acquire or lose weight just because I say I'm a feminist. I see no need to say I am.

You have said many times you're not a feminist lass. Has that changed?

Eh?? You're female because you have XX chromosomes, it's a biological fact, nothing to do with belief. You aren't, however, a feminist, which is an entirely different thing

As I said before I do not consider sticking "I am a feminist " or "as a feminist" adds anything to, or for that matter , detracts from the validity of a point.

I am a woman, biologically. I am entitled to express an opinion on issues which affect women.

Bertrand for example has said many times she does not consider the views of liberal feminists who are "pro-sex" are compatible with feminism yet they call themselves feminists. So what exactly is this "entrely different thing" which may or may not be a feminist who is allowed (by you) to post on here?

birdsdestiny

I completely agree. I sometimes look at AIBU and think what the fuck?

It can get very messy, very quickly.

'I am female and I have opinions about women's rights , women's place in society and women's issues. It is not comparable in the way you suggest. Not believing in Christ would indeed mean I'm not a Christian. Not saying I am a feminist does not stop me being female'

Eh?? You're female because you have XX chromosomes, it's a biological fact, nothing to do with belief. You aren't, however, a feminist, which is an entirely different thing

LassWiTheDelicateAir

Yes, me too! That's why I enjoy these boards. Sometimes they can get very intense and talk about things I have no real knowledge of. Or interest in, tbh. I often don't comment when I don't have utter conviction. But I put that down, largely, to the fact that I simply don't have the exact same experience as other people. And therefore my opinion is not informed, enough.

But in terms of the general feeling, I mostly agree with it.

What's incredibly interesting to me, is that I found this quite late in life. So I feel as though I have a foot in both camps.

So whilst I disagree with the people who stay the feminist board is aggressive, and man hating or whatever, I understand why they say it.

I see an enormous difference in feminists who totally get it, but simply disagree, and feminists who disagree because they just don't 'see' things the same way.

Flipperty, do you find that that is particular to the feminist board though? Sometimes I can be on a thread in chat and think ' is anyone going to answer my bloody question' or I can be on another thread and there will be a number of people saying 'well I agree with birds' when I have said something utterly inane!

Flipperty - I don't post very often and have also felt the same - but from lurking on here more and more I think that posters behave in the same way as on the rest of Mumsnet - they get caught up in discussions and just don't 'notice' others - a bit like lots of groups, workplaces etc.
I've started to put in my views much more often recently and generally felt very welcome - apart from the (male) poster who recently told me that I couldn't be a real feminist because blah, blah, blah..

I think because I really, really don't understand why some people hate feminists so much.

Very good question. I don't think there is a decisive factor for all. Some just want to be superior to women. Women belong in the kitchen, serving men, pleasing men. That kind of stuff. Some don't necessarily think that but lack any sort of empathy. They don't perceive women to be worse off. These are the types that would point to equal rights before the law, that would try to debunk assault statistics, would mention men's problems as a counter. That don't understand consent, say things like "women need to take responsibility for their actions".